Episode 52: My Friend Kris
This is Jess and Chelsea. They’re both climbers, they both live in Colorado. They both love dogs, and they’re forever inextricably tied together by these very common, uncomplicated things. They’re also forever connected because of this one very complicated big thing.
In September of 2020, the climbing community lost Kris Ugarizza to suicide. Three years later, we’re sharing this story through the lens of two friends in order to promote more action and awareness on prevention.
This podcast continues to work with Better Help to break down the stigma and persistent societal belief that mental health issues are a sign of weakness, and because everybody deserves a good support system, and sometimes that starts with one person. Go to betterhelp.com/climbing to find out more information about online therapy.
If you’re having a crisis or thoughts of suicide, call or text 988 to reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
If you or someone you know is struggling, help is here.
For the Love of Climbing is presented by Patagonia. Additional support is from deuter USA, Allez Outdoor, and Ocún.
Music is licensed by Music Bed. Additional music is licensed by Blue Dot Sessions.
Photo courtesy of Jess Smith.
Catch up on podcast (pod-Kath?) updates and general life things: @inheadlights
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
(KATHY KARLO): This podcast is presented by Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia’s in business to save our home planet.
- It’s 2023, and modern climbers are more accomplished than ever, and we don’t just mean on the wall. Patagonia has always seen the value in being bold, whether it means pushing highpoints or having the audacity to demand more for our planet.
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(FEMALE VOICE): Today we’re going to talk about “allez”. “Allez” means “come on!” in a way, or to encourage. Ok! We are done with the simple and normal uses of “allez”, now let’s cut to the chase:
(KK): Allez Outdoor Personal Care products are made by climbers for those who love the outdoors. Their rich and repairing ingredients for their skincare collection are inspired by desert landscapes, and their simple and recyclable packaging makes them eco-sustainable. Allez commits to protecting the open spaces that we love by partnering with the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. That’s Allez Outdoor: “A-L-L-E-Z”). Allez Outdoor—made by climbers, for those who love the outdoors.
(KK): Who is Ocún? More than prolific crack climbing gloves, Ocún has been making innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance since 1998. Their climbing shoe designs are all original, developed and manufactured in Czech Republic and completely, one hundred percent gender neutral. Beyond their sticky rubber, Ocún is renowned for their hardware, harnesses, and the biggest lightest crash pad on the market. Find your new favorite climbing shoes and accessories at Backcountry, Moosejaw, CampSaver, and Amazon.
- Hey, a quick heads up. This episode discusses suicide. September is National Suicide Prevention & Awareness Month, as well as World Suicide Prevention Day celebrated annually on September 10th, in order to promote more action and awareness on prevention.
If you or someone you know is struggling, reach out for support. Dial 988 to contact the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline, available 24/hours a day.
- There’s an old saying about hitting rock bottom, and that the only place to go when you’re there is up. But that isn’t always true.
(JESS SMITH): After Kris died, I am not a religious person, so I had a hard time finding some source of comfort. I wanted science to tell me that your brain chemistry when you’re going through that just changes and it can change just so quickly.
And I kept coming across all these articles that said, “Instead of saying somebody ‘committed’ suicide, it’s best to say somebody ‘died by’ suicide” because that implies they are struggling with their mental health.
And I think, very recently, we’ve started talking more about mental health. Especially after the past year. And so, I feel like it is becoming less stigmatized.
(KK): Nobody who finds themselves at rock bottom expects to be there. And the thing about rock bottom is that it can look so normal on the outside, even though your entire world inside has been shattered into a million, tiny, lonely pieces.
(JS): But people are so used to when somebody is struggling with something—it’s like a cancer of the body, and I don’t think we really know how to talk about depression because people carry it in so many different ways and it manifests itself in so many different ways.
But I do appreciate that term “died by” instead of “committed” because Kris was really struggling.
I also had a hard time with anger and, sometimes, I still feel really mad at him. But I just try to remember that he was sick—just not in the way that we’re so used to people being sick.
(KK): We want, so badly, to understand the mechanics of despair. Most of us are walking around, confused enough about the depth of our own feelings, let alone anyone else’s.
In September of 2020, the climbing community lost Kris Ugarizza to suicide. Three years later, we’re sharing this story through the lens of two friends.
(CHELSEA RUDE): Kris was one of my best friends who really cared about taking care of his friends. You know, if something was wrong, he would just turn right back around and be there for you at the drop of a hat, regardless of what he was going through.
We’d go climbing and he’d always bring cinnamon rolls from his favorite bakery. And he was one of my favorite climbing partners. He also was really awkwardly funny.
(laughs)
Like, really awkward! And I think that’s one of the things that really made him unique. And I think that while there was a lot that he was going through internally that he didn’t share, he, at the same time oddly, definitely wore his heart on his sleeve, as well.
(ALEX HONNOLD) (to himself): Ok, I’m Alex Honnold. You’re listening to the love of climbing podcast. It’s a funny, sad, somewhat uncomfortable podcast—
(louder)
I was like, “Wow, this is the opposite of my podcast. But, you know, here we go!”
(laughs)
(upbeat music)
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing—”
—is it “to the”? Or “to—“ Do you say “to For the Love of Climbing Podcast”?
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast.”
Yeah. Yeah, I see it.
“You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. This is not a climbing podcast. Well, sorta. It’s a funny, sad, and somewhat uncomfortable podcast about choosing vulnerability. Here’s the show.”
Easy cheesy!
(JS): I would describe Chelsea as somebody who’s very, very sweet and bleeds empathy. I think you have a huge heart and you definitely wear it on your sleeve—even if that might feel detrimental at times. But I think you just care so much, and that’s very evident in everything that you do.
(CR): Jess is a very kind-hearted person who has sass behind herself—
(JS): (laughs)
(CR): —that you wouldn’t necessarily see on the surface. She is a very loyal friend and a firecracker, and I’m so lucky to call her my friend and she, thankfully, lives just down the street from me.
(JS): Yay, I’ve never been described as that before! I’ll take it, though.
(KK): This is Jess and Chelsea. They’re both climbers, they both live in Colorado. They both love dogs, and they’re forever inextricably tied together by these very common, uncomplicated things. They’re also forever connected because of this one very complicated big thing.
(JS): I’ll start. So, I’m Jessica or Jess. So, I was Kris’ roommate, so I feel like I got to know him pretty intimately. Kris was definitely like a brother to me, and I say that because I loved him so much, but he also drove me crazy at times! You know, he would leave all the cabinets open and I just lived with a boy—
(laughs)
—so, he was definitely messy and oblivious, at times. But he was so wonderful and he wanted to take care of everybody. He wanted to make sure everybody was fed, everybody had a drink, everybody had access to Kyra kisses. I think that was just a huge part of him. He just wanted to take care of everybody.
(CR): I didn’t even know him! And he came with me for my first shoulder surgery. And I got really sick, and here is this person—who really didn’t know me—holding my hair out of the trash can so that I didn’t puke all over my hair. And that was how we became really good friends.
And he drove me to PT, and that is where I first realized that Kris’ driving—
(Jess laughs)
—and me did not mix very well.
(all laugh)
Well, ok. So, this is the morning after surgery, and he’s driving me and I’m starting to feel nauseous and I’m like, “God. I can’t tell if this is his driving or if I’m really about to be sick from the medication.”
And I think it was the medication, but in the days after, I was still in a car with him and he is a heavy gas hitter, but also, a really heavy break hitter. So, you’re like—
(imitates breaking)
(laughs)
—the whole way! Always.
(KK): Oh, that is the worst.
(CR): Yeah. It was the worst.
(JS): Was his car doing that beeping thing?
(CR): Yes. Yeah. So, when I found that out I was like, “I don’t actually like driving but I can’t ride with you, Kris.”
(laughs)
(JS): So, I was looking for a new living situation and our friend Justin, who I was climbing with at the gym said, “Oh, this guy Kris also needs a roommate.”
So, I went over to Kris’ house in Louisville, and I walked in and he had all these candles lit, this awesome Latin music playing, and he made this huge feast. And he made his Moscow mules, which he’s pretty famous for, and the house smelled delicious and it looked so cute.
And I was like, “Yeah! This will be perfect!” And then, a week later, I moved in and the house was disgusting. It was a disaster. It smelled really weird. And then, Kris was like, “I’m going to the Red for two months, I’ll see you later!”
But he texted me a lot from the Red and he would send me really goofy selfies and then, he came back and I feel like we became really close right away.
(KK): And that’s how Kris made a lot of friends. He was the person always excited to get out and take climbing photos, go salsa dancing, bring doughnuts to the crag, and feed everybody despite their hunger level.
(JS): And in the morning, he would go and get doughnuts. He would go to Moxie and get cinnamon rolls and put together a huge breakfast spread. It would cover an entire coffee table and everyone was usually like, “I’m good! I don’t need all this food.” And he was like, “No, you need to keep eating,”
(CR): I know that everybody’s had their own emotions with it, and there was a brief moment where I was mad at him, but mostly because I didn’t understand and I still don’t understand.
I don’t wanna say that that was Kris’ destiny. But I also know that for him to have made that decision, he had to have been hurting so much more than I can actually even process.
And I had a dream with him the days after his accident. He was on this bus, and the bus drove up. And I saw him walking down the aisle and he sticks his head out the door, and I was like, “Kris, where the fuck have you been?”
And he’s like, “I went to the Tetons and they were excellent!”
(both laugh)
I don’t know. For some reason, that dream just made me feel not mad or upset, [and I just felt a lot of compassion for him]. And I don’t know how to phrase it any other way than an accident, because he was such a bright light.
I know that he was struggling, but I think that just the term “suicide” has this negative connotation to it where I think it’s really easy for humans to judge. And I guess I term it “accident” so that people aren’t quick to judge, because I don’t know what he was going through.
And so, because of that, I actually can’t be mad at him. It’s more of like—man, I just miss him. And I’m happy, also, that he’s not having to suffer.
(JS): As Kris’ roommate, I have seen him go through break ups and I have seen him very depressed in the way that people typically imagine somebody who’s depressed—where they’re not laughing and their room is really dark and it’s hard to get out of bed.
And there was a time where it was very obvious that he was struggling, and he communicated that to people that were close to him. But before he died, I actually thought he was doing so much better and he seemed really happy.
Like Chelsea said, I talked to him that morning and I saw him the night before and he was having a hard time, but for most of the summer, he seemed really happy and he was doing well.
And it just makes me afraid of letting my guard down with anybody that I know [who] is struggling. But also, I know this happens to people that never explicitly show it. And, to your point, I think everyone is going through so much and how do you know?
(KK): Nobody who finds themselves at rock bottom expects to be there. And the other thing about rock bottom is that it can come quickly, without external signs, but more often, gradually over time. A deep, dark abyss that takes place over a series of small moments that eventually, turn into a much bigger one.
And for Kris, for so many like Kris, one of the cruelest parts of depression is the impossible task of articulating exactly what the pain consists of. The sum of any life can be a lot of sorrow, and the general truth is that depression sucks.
But as philosophers Cecily Whiteley and Jonathan Birch have said, ‘It’s not just sorrow. It’s a state of consciousness that distorts.’
And there’s still so little we know about it—where it comes from and how to treat it. But what we do know is that in 2023, 29% of Americans reported having been diagnosed with depression in their lifetime. Suicide is the 11th leading cause of death in the U.S.
(CR): I think that the majority of people, when you peel back that “I’m good” stamp, there’s so much more depth and intricacy on feelings and what’s going on in life and work and relationships and all of these things.
And with Kris, he had a bad break up—and I actually am verbalizing this ‘cause I have felt guilt around it—where he just couldn’t let go and my brain just didn’t understand it. I was like, “Kris, you’re gonna be fine.” When I think back to it, it makes me feel so insensitive.
And so, with the people that I really care about, I’ve really been listening—even if my brain can’t quite understand.
In the month of May I started struggling more with anxiety and depression, and then it made me think of Kris and like, damn. That’s what he was going through and I just didn’t know.
(JS): I honestly still kinda have really intense flashbacks of that day and that whole process. It kinda hits me at random times, still.
I remember that night—a lot of Kris’ close friends gathered at a really close friends’ (Tracy and Justin’s) house, and that kind of became Grand Central Station, really, for everybody and they were so kind and had their doors open to everybody.
And I do remember thinking that night, almost all of Kris’ friends in Colorado were at that house—despite Covid. We really kinda just threw that out the window.
And I remember thinking that everybody that Kris loves is here, and I really wish that he could have just said, “Hey, I need this gathering to happen.” And I like to think that we would have made it happen. And—
(pauses)
It just made me so sad that everybody was there and he wasn’t there. But I’m so grateful that everybody came together, and it was just a good support system.
(KK): This podcast continues to work with Better Help to break down the stigma and persistent societal belief that mental health issues are a sign of weakness, and because everybody deserves a good support system, and sometimes that starts with one person.
Go to betterhelp.com/climbing to find out more information about online therapy.
If you’re having a crisis or thoughts of suicide, call or text 988 to reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
If you or someone you know is struggling, help is here.
We’re gonna take a short break. We’ll be back after this.
- Patagonia makes high-performance gear for climbing, from cragging essentials like the Caliza and Venga Rock Pants to the redesigned Nano-Air Light Hybrid Hoody that keeps you comfortable when you’re working hard in cold conditions.
All of Patagonia's technical climbing products are designed and tested in partnership with their ambassador team. They’re made to move, built to endure, and designed to have the lightest footprint possible. And like everything Patagonia makes, they’re backed by a lifetime Ironclad Guarantee. Visit Patagonia.com/climbing to see the latest.
(JS): I think the time happens in waves. There might be a few days where I feel ok and then, it hits me harder. This happened in September, and in January, it hit me harder than it hit me in September, which was very jarring.
I’ve honestly gone back and forth between being able to look at videos and pictures of Kris. Sometimes, I can’t. It’s too hard. And sometimes, I love it and I definitely seek it out. And I just never know when it’s gonna be a pleasant reminder, or if it’s just gonna hit me too hard.
And even music is hard! Kris and I always used to listen to this Tracy Chapman playlist on Spotify on the weekends and we would make breakfast and people would come and stay with us. And it always made me so happy when Kris was like, “This is the playlist Jess and I listen to on the weekends!”
I was at the gym and a Tracy Chapman song came on and I just had to leave ‘cause it was too hard to listen to, which makes me feel sad because I don’t want to suppress any of those memories and I don’t wanna hide pictures away or videos away.
I did notice with our friend group, we kinda took a point where nobody was really talking about Kris, and I think that was because nobody wanted to upset anybody. And then, we did acknowledge that. But I do have this fear that we’ll stop talking about him, at some point, because we don’t want to upset anybody.
And it is hard, but I do love those moments when we can laugh and be like, “Kris would have said this really cringey thing at this moment!” or “Remember when Kris used to this?” And even though those moments and those memories are really hard, I’m grateful that we still have them.
I remember after Kris died, I had taken two weeks off of work and going back was really jarring. And I kinda desperately wanted people to talk specifically about what happened.
Even a family member—I told her specifically what happened to Kris and I was hoping she would tell the rest of the family, and she said it was too traumatic to share with them and she didn’t want to talk about it.
And I had such a hard time being back at work because it was like, “Hey. I’m really sorry you went through this,” —and then, a bunch of work questions. and that was so…
(trails off)
It felt kind of dismissive, a little bit. It also felt like the way that my friend died was so scary to talk about, whereas, I feel like if he had cancer or something or if he was really sick, people would maybe be more specific with talking about it.
But they were afraid to talk to me. And I kinda had this “How dare you?” reaction to the rest of the world moving on and not wanting to stop like I wanted to stop.
I think it’s so easy to see people going through things and say like, “That’s kind of mild,” or “That’s not that big of a deal,” And I know in Kris’ case, it was so much more and he had been struggling for his entire life with so many other issues.
I just think of so many other people that are maybe struggling with something like, work-wise or [they’re] really stressed out about work, and it seems mild, but how do you know that there isn’t so much history there and trauma that they’re just not letting you in on?
(KK): There’s a myth that talking about suicide or asking someone if they’re having suicidal thoughts will trigger an attempt. But asking at-risk individuals can actually help lower anxiety and open up communication.
So, it’s ok to say “suicide”. That’s where we can all start.
Suicide prevention and care has made some serious leaps and bounds. A clinical psychologist out of Seattle, Washington is modernizing the approach to prevention with something as simple as—a text message.
It’s a digital support system of radical care, but began in the 1940’s with 23-year-old Lieutenant Jerome Motto, who many years later, conducted the first prevention intervention through a randomized controlled trial. This study significantly reduced suicide rates, and took place over the course of a decade.
During the war, Jerome received correspondence from a woman he’d briefly been on a few dates with in the summer of 1943. Her name was Marilyn Ryan, and these letters became a lifeline—a connection to a world outside of war—and shaped the rest of Jerome’s professional life.
After attending Berkeley and UC San Francisco, Dr. Motto was drawn to working with suicidal patients and began to test the impact of a caring message. Letters were sent to a test group in suicide recovery.
Dr. Motto “held on to people”, and in his own quiet way, advocated for awareness and prevention, inspiring Dr. Ursula Whiteside to explore this simple but human connection.
Today, she implements this approach by sending clients brief, caring texts that go beyond a typical 50-minute therapy session. These texts give clients a reminder to hold on, between both sessions and the hard moments, and have been proven to be impactful.
Therapists and researchers around the globe have recognized the value and adopted similar methods inspired by Dr. Motto.
A psychiatry service in Australia sent illustrated postcards to patients, the majority of which had histories of trauma, and saw a 50% reduction in suicide attempts. Five years later, the effects on the study’s participants were still going strong and the cost per patient was roughly $11.
In Tehran, sending postcards with inspirational quotes had a similar impact.
What this important work shows us is the huge impact that a simple message can have on a person’s well-being. And for all the days between—
(CR): Honestly, I think that therapy—access to good therapists—should be at the forefront for everybody. If not, even, dare I say, a requirement.
Because nobody’s childhood escapes us. It is stuck onto us like a drunken tattoo. Right? It’s just always there and at certain points in life, different things come up and then, you have to work through that.
And I think if our society had better access to therapists, and it didn’t have such an impact on us financially, I think that a lot more people would be armed with different tools to work through different and a variety of things.
(JS): I have a heard a lot of people mention like, “Oh, I talked to my therapist,” or “When I was talking to my therapist,” and just like, sneak that word in there.
And it doesn’t sound unusual at all! It’s totally normal. And I feel like, maybe at some point, people would hide that they were going to therapy.
(CR): Yeah, I think it’s having these advertisements of online therapy and things like this helps de-stigmatize that word.
And then, I often wonder because we live where we live, if that’s part of it—that it just seems like it’s being more accepted and less stigmatized. But if we were to zoom out and look at the country as a whole, is it changing for the better or is it staying the same, and there are just pockets of places?
It’s hard to say, but I think that the statement, “I’m going to therapy” definitely has a negative connotation for a lot of people. And I think it’s just fucking great! I’m like, I’m going to therapy next Friday! Can’t wait.”
(KK): This episode is in loving memory of Kris Ugarizza.
- You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. A huge thank you to deuter, one of the leading backpack brands that will help you hit the trails with confidence and comfort. A big shout out to Allez Outdoor for supporting the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. And to Ocún—innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance.
And thanks to Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia is in business to save our home planet. Support companies who support this podcast—we couldn’t do it without them. If you liked what you heard, you can leave a review on iTunes or give us a like—like all good things, you can find us on the internet.