Episode 54: Good Mom, Bad Mom
“Are you a good witch or a bad witch?” Glinda asked Dorothy when she crash-landed in Oz for the first time. The theory of everything is that every element has an opposite. And by this logic, if there are, in fact, “good moms”, then it would follow that there must also be “bad moms”. But it doesn’t really work that way because the system of measurement that dictates the “good mom” / “bad mom” status is fundamentally flawed.
When Tracy became a newly-minted mom, she was determined to find a way to stick with climbing while she navigated all the new hurdles motherhood brings. As the dual identity of parent and climber becomes more common, we hope stories like Tracy’s won’t stand out.
Tracy will always be a mom. But, she can also be a climber. She can hold one in each hand while we work to dismantle the notion that motherhood has to come at the price of one’s identity—instead of being integrated as a part of it.
The mental construct that ping pongs back and forth between being “good” or “bad” traps moms and parents in a place of “not-enoughness”, when the fact of the matter is: you are.
For the Love of Climbing is presented by Patagonia. Additional support is from deuter USA, Allez Outdoor, and Ocún.
Music is by Chad Crouch. Additional music is licensed by Music Bed.
Photo courtesy of Tracy + BJ Wilson.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
(KATHY KARLO): This podcast is presented by Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia’s in business to save our home planet.
- It’s 2023, and modern climbers are more accomplished than ever, and we don’t just mean on the wall. Patagonia has always seen the value in being bold, whether it means pushing highpoints or having the audacity to demand more for our planet.
So, what’s it mean to be a “strong climber”? Full commitment to the sport and to our communities. It means not just working towards futuristic first ascents but also, a better future. And we aren’t going to get there alone.
For Patagonia’s 50th year, we’re looking forward, not back and together, we can prioritize purpose over profit to protect this planet. Get involved, read stories to get you out there, and join a community that values what we do off the wall as much as we do on. Because we’re Bolder Together. Find out more at patagonia.com/climbing.
- We get support from deuter, one of the leading backpack brands that will help you hit the trails with confidence and comfort, but most importantly—your snacks. Founded in 1898, deuter believes in fit, comfort, and working in the long term to offset CO2 emissions by teaming up with Climate Partner to invest in social and climate offset projects worldwide for select product—including their Guide and Vertrail climbing packs.
deuter packs are PFC-free—meaning no forever chemicals and they honor their Promise Lifetime Warranty since their packs were meant to be on your back, and not in landfills. So, you can focus on way cooler things like puppies, pocket bacon, and gettin’ sendy—whether at the crag or in the alpine.
(FEMALE VOICE): Today we’re going to talk about “allez”. “Allez” means “come on!” in a way, or to encourage. Ok! We are done with the simple and normal uses of “allez”, now let’s cut to the chase:
(KK): Allez Outdoor Personal Care products are made by climbers for those who love the outdoors. Their rich and repairing ingredients for their skincare collection are inspired by desert landscapes, and their simple and recyclable packaging makes them eco-sustainable. Allez commits to protecting the open spaces that we love by partnering with the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. That’s Allez Outdoor: “A-L-L-E-Z”). Allez Outdoor—made by climbers, for those who love the outdoors.
(KK): Who is Ocún? More than prolific crack climbing gloves, Ocún has been making innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance since 1998. Their climbing shoe designs are all original, developed and manufactured in Czech Republic and completely, one hundred percent gender neutral. Beyond their sticky rubber, Ocún is renowned for their hardware, harnesses, and the biggest lightest crash pad on the market. Find your new favorite climbing shoes and accessories at Backcountry, Moosejaw, CampSaver, and Amazon.
- This episode is about motherhood. It’s about being a climber and being a mom, and most importantly, about being human.
(TRACY WILSON): So, my name is Tracy Wilson. I live in Carbondale, Colorado. I teach for a high school that is very focused on the outdoors and I have the opportunity to teach ninth grade world geography. And then, I run the climbing program here at the school, as well.
Yeah, and so many programs, I think, just undersell the ability for teenagers to learn—and to learn safely—and to do really well. So, you find a lot of high school programs that are like, the “carnival ride program” where they don’t really need to know anything except for how to tie their figure eight and everyone does everything for them.
And one of my colleagues actually has dubbed it the “crag concierge”—we really want to teach them to be “crag concierges” in the world and be the belayer that’s getting the rope out and is very efficient and ready, and I think we do a really good job of that.
And it just feels really good to be able to really propel them into a passion.
(KK): This is Tracy, and if you couldn’t tell, she wears a lot of different hats. She’s an educator and a mentor, and when she’s off the clock, she’s running the volunteer and educational program with 5Point Film Fest.
(TW): And I’m a mom! I have two kids! Ressa, who’s about three and a half, and Remy who’s almost three. So, they are nine months apart. And that might make some people’s heads spin to think of how that’s possible. But Ressa joined our family biologically in February 2019. And then, Remy joined our family via adoption in November of 2019.
(ALEX HONNOLD) (to himself): Ok, I’m Alex Honnold. You’re listening to the love of climbing podcast. It’s a funny, sad, somewhat uncomfortable podcast—
(louder)
I was like, “Wow, this is the opposite of my podcast. But, you know, here we go!”
(laughs)
(upbeat music)
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing—”
—is it “to the”? Or “to—“ Do you say “to For the Love of Climbing Podcast”?
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast.”s
Yeah. Yeah, I see it.
“You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. This is not a climbing podcast. Well, sorta. It’s a funny, sad, and somewhat uncomfortable podcast about choosing vulnerability. Here’s the show.”
Easy cheesy!
(KK): The theory of everything—at least, in the natural world, is that every element has an opposite, or is connected to one—such as water is cold and fire is hot. Dark and light are primordial opposites. In physics, it’s Newton’s law. In spirituality, we have yin and yang. The dark and the light.
And by this logic, if there are, in fact, “good moms”, then it would follow that there must also be “bad moms”.
This system of measurement that dictates the “good mom” / “bad mom” status is fundamentally flawed. Hypernyms based on isolated actions can’t be completely true, because in between the black and white, there’s guaranteed to be a little gray.
“Good moms” don’t yell at their kids or let them watch too much TV. They read to them at night, and know how to craft the perfect PB&J. “Good moms” volunteer, and have a clean home. “Good moms” breastfeed their babies.
But if you buy into the system, then do you automatically lump all other non-PB&J-ers into the “bad mom” category? This mental construct that ping pongs back and forth between being “good” or “bad” traps moms and parents in a place of “not-enoughness”, when the fact of the matter is: you are.
So, which one is it?
(GLINDA): Are you a good witch or a bad witch?
(DOROTHY): Who, me? I’m not a witch at all. I’m Dorothy Gale, from Kansas.
(TW): I grew up as a climber—kind of. Like, I began my climbing career at City of Rocks and Smith Rock—‘cause Boise was equal distance from both, really.
(KK): Tracy is both a climber and a mom, but as the trajectory goes, she was a climber first.
And it was during her junior year of high school when she first stepped into a climbing gym, and because this was the late nineties, the gym was also in a racquetball court in the downtown Y. But the staff was friendly, Tracy loved going, and she and her friends kept coming back.
Eventually, when she was no older than twenty, Tracy found herself working at that very same YMCA for their outdoor program.
(TW): Some of the climbers who were on that team at the time asked me to coach in the U.S.A. league. And we didn’t have a team at that point, and they really wanted to get into that competitive realm.
So, I was a U.S.A coach in the early days and did a lot of driving all the way through the Big Sky region to go to comps at Bozeman or wherever with a bunch of teenagers. And so, I was driving sixteen and seventeen-year-olds to comps around.
And it’s come back a thousandfold. Just thinking of these early years of having young kids and wanting to keep climbing—not even at a grade level, but just at a consistency level—to not let that part of me die. It’s all been because of alumni or really, I’d say some of our younger friends who have the time and flexibility in their life.
Our friend Wyatt, who just turned twenty-one [and] is a former student of our school, and this past summer, he came on almost a five-week trip with BJ and I and our two toddlers. We gave him a hard time ‘cause we were like, “Are you sure you wanna be with your former teachers who are forty-two and forty-three, and their two toddlers when you could be with anyone else climbing?”
And he had good points! He was like, “I’m going to eat really well. You guys are reliable. College students are not reliable—partners who are never gonna show up for me. And I’m gonna get a lot of climbing in.”
BJ and him, when they get together—my husband’s name is BJ—they just talk about climbing training and dork out about the recent Power Company Podcast they’ve listened to or whatever. And then, when Wyatt and I talk, it’s all geopolitical politics and what articles we’ve read recently.
And it’s just, what a gift to have that one, secure climbing partner—who we both love to climb with and we both trust—showing up for us in that way for that whole time. You know, we realized that that’s something that because of the work that we’ve done at the school and how much we’ve tried to be mentors for other people—how much that’s come back.
(KK): Back in the day, before Outside’s acquisition of over 20 outdoor sport and lifestyle print magazines, things like selling ad space was a thing.But before climbing media was banished to live in the “Outerverse”, BJ sold ad space while Tracy used to run the outdoor program for the Y. And that’s how they met.
(TW): And we kind of joke that it was really a $13 ad that brought us together. He would call the Y once a month to check in and make sure we were happy with our ad quality, and then we’d start talking about climbing for the next little bit.
And at one of the Outdoor Retailer shows we met. And then, he wanted to come to Boise to go to City of Rocks to go climbing. So, we were kind of like a show-mance that worked out. And then, he proposed nine months later and we got married.
That first year was definitely not without trying to learn each other. Because we, actually, during that nine months we dated, we didn’t live in the same town. So, I was in Boise and he was in Carbondale. But our relationship—like, we climbed Epinephrine together in the first fifteen months of dating or something.
And so, those experiences of being really intimate in climbing, I think, showed us a lot about the other person. And I feel like we’re very yin and yang in our relationship. My Instagram handle is “sallyslowpants” and I’m always trying to keep up with everyone else, and BJ’s like, executive functioning and spreadsheets and his ability as a human to always know where all the things are. He’s pretty top-notch.
(laughs)
We compliment in that way pretty well.
(KK): Things between Tracy and BJ work out. They went from climbing partners to partner partners, and life was pretty good. They closed the gap between Boise and Carbondale, and had over a decade of adventures together, traveling and climbing and just doing what young, happy couples do when they’re in love.
(TW): I really think I knew since I was a teenager at some point that having kids was going to be a part of my life. My dad was adopted, and so I guess I just didn’t have that need to biologically birth a child and I never felt [that way] in all of my twenties.
I kinda was open to it ‘cause BJ and I were together for thirteen years before we had kids in the mix. I’m grateful for that, because we had a lot of time together and a lot of adventures. And even through all of my twenties, I was like, “Maybe that biological thing that people talk about is gonna go off in me.” —and that didn’t happen.
And then, in my thirties, I’m like, “Maybe that biological thing is gonna go off in me,” and it still never happened! And it actually never really happened. But I always knew that I wanted to have kids.
So, I broke my ankle in a climbing accident in 2017, and that was really the time that I slowed down enough to go through the adoption paperwork—
(laughs)
And at that time, I was thirty-seven, so we kind of started that process and got it underway.
And then, when I was thirty-eight-ish is when I was like, “Oh, man. How long is this gonna take? I wonder if we should try to get pregnant.” —and we did. And then, Ressa came.
For us, I mean, I think having that experience was amazing and wonderful. Somewhere in my early thirties, I was kinda like, “Well, gosh. Adoption’s the way that I wanna go, but am I gonna miss this thing that everyone talks about?”
And I had a very wise friend of mine, Katie in Salt Lake, who just was like, “You know what? At the end of it, you have a child. And it doesn’t matter how that child came out.”
After having both experiences of adoption and biological, I can a thousand percent agree with that. You know, for me, that wasn’t an issue that carried any weight.
But I also think, for me, the blood-tie emphasis that people kind of project on everyone is just something that I never really connected with. Some of my closest and best friends, I’m not biologically related to at all. Right? And they are a family to me and those bonds are incredibly strong.
As things go, the agency that we picked is an agency in Fort Collins and they do sliding scale adoptions, which I really think that adoption is one of those justice issues that people don’t even think about.
But having a lot of friends and knowing them throughout their years who have tried to conceive or who have tried to do IVF, adoption, and just other means of trying to get pregnant—it’s cost prohibitive, and it’s something that people don’t think about.
And so, our agency was very small in Fort Collins, but they do sliding-scale adoptions. So, they have varying levels if you’re a single parent or if you make this amount of money, your adoption costs will be offset by some of their fundraising efforts with getting grants.
And we loved the fact that they allowed single parent adoptions, that they allowed same-sex adoptions—‘cause when you get into the adoption culture, you kinda realize how many are very strictly faith-based and a lot of them have really strict—
(pauses)
—requirements of what they think parents can be, which we don’t agree with that at all and we didn’t want to give our money to fund something that we didn’t really ethically feel like we could get behind. So, we kinda hung with our agency for a while and kinda knowing that the process would take longer.
So, we decided we wanted to do infant adoption and our agency primarily works with young moms in the state of Colorado. And so, they are a very choice-based adoption company and what we loved about them—and what we still love about them—is that they are very pro-birth mom support.
And so, they have lifetime counseling for the birth moms that they work with. The way in which they talk about them is how you should talk about birth moms, ‘cause it’s such a, I mean, beyond a brave choice.
(KK): What came next, as Tracy describes, is something that a lot of adoptees will experience in their lifetime. Even in cases of infant adoption, children can experience loss and trauma—regardless of the love for and support from the adoptive family.
The adoption process is both a beautiful and a bittersweet thing—and a trauma-informed system acknowledges and includes parents as key participants in the healing process. Trauma-informed care will look different than traditional parenting strategies, and puts the emphasis on connection, felt safety, and regulation. Trauma-informed care is a system that works to meet all three of these needs.
(TW): We found ourselves at this adoption training in Denver, and we’re just kind of feeling that of all the conversations that should be happening in the adoption realm, that’s one of the biggest: families discussing the impact of that and the trauma surrounding that. And are they the best people equipped at where they are in their life? Because I think it needs to be handled tenderly.
I think of adoption as a hole and I always had that little insight with my dad. But I think the way in which people talked about adoption from when I was a kid—and I was born in 1980—there was this stigma about it, generally.
And I think that comes out of women being ashamed of getting pregnant before wedlock. And there’s all of these societal things that come into play, but where the shame got put on was the children.
(KK): Ready or not, like most (if not all) parents-to-be, Tracy and BJ embarked on a new chapter, just nine months after Ressa was born.
(TW): We were actually coaching climbing in Grand Junction and I had just lead belayed a student on a route, and my phone rang and I answer it. I was like, “Hi, this is Tracy.”
(laughs)
They said their name and that they were from our agency, and I was like, “Oh!”
(pauses)
And then, following saying, “A baby boy was just born.”
And I said, “I will call you right back.” and grabbed BJ and we went to the birthday party room and kinda had an hour to make that decision. Which, for us, was a very quick decision to make. But it was not what is typical. And so, I remember texting a friend who I work with here and saying, “Hey, I saw that you posted that baby car seat on the local swap. Any chance I could get it?”
And her response was, “I don’t think it’s gonna fit Ressa! It’s a little too small.” And she was the first person that we told we were gonna adopt. ‘Cause I was like, “Actually, we just got a call that our son was born, and we’re driving to Denver.”
And then, we went and met our son and we hung out with him in the hospital. And then, picked up our friend Grayson who also was down at the time in Denver, and she hopped in our car and we drove back to Carbondale—a family of four.
And there was a funny moment at that time because I was nursing Ressa and was hoping to nurse Remy, but we just needed to have court approval for that. So, we were at a Smash Burger in Breckenridge and—
(laughs)
Grayson is feeding me fries, I’m nursing Ressa, BJ’s feeding Remy on the bottle, and I’m like, “Holy shit. This just happened! Like, oh my gosh. This is such a crazy experience.”
So, it wasn’t until Remy was nine months old that I was like, “Wait. This is the age that Ressa was when Remy joined us—“
(laughs)
—‘cause they’re just kinda baby blobs still, at nine months old. And so, we really did have an infant, and then a newborn. And it was all very sudden.
(KK): And just like that—Tracy, BJ, Remy, and Ressa—are a family of four. And Ressa and Remy, as far as they’re concerned, are siblings all the way.
(TW): Ressa will never remember anything before Remy. And they are just best, best friends, which is awesome and amazing to us. And I think at first, when we first had the kids, people would say like, “Oh, it’s like you had twins!”
And we never wanted to discount the people who actually had twins, and we don’t want to discount his adoption story. So, any time we’re in the stroller at the grocery store and someone’s like, “Oh, they’re twins!” I’m like, “No, actually they’re not!” And make sure to honor his story and talk about it and give it that power that it needs, because it’s amazing.
But now, developmentally, we very much—
(laughs)
—we have two toddlers who are toddling about. Ressa will be four in February, and Remy will just be three in November.
Biologically, they look somewhat similar and so, oftentimes people say things that I’m like, “Well, I think what you meant to say by that is that they look like they could biologically be related,” —because we always have people say, “They look like siblings!”
And my response is, “Well, that’s funny, ‘cause they are!” You know? They are siblings.
But it’s interesting because they kind of have both of our personalities in different ways, which is just fascinating how that happens. Ressa is pretty conservative and timid and very much likes to know where all of her things are, just like her dad. She likes to know where she’s going and a path—will probably read all the guidebooks to detail when she gets them.
And Remy’s like, a little bit more swing from the hips. He likes to jump off stuff and figure it out, and then realize not to do that again. And he’s just a little bit more, I think, just kinda go for it, like me.
(KK): There’s a balancing act between being a parent and remaining a climber. Some may make it look effortless—flawless, even. But more and more, we see that fourth wall crumble and moms especially are being more transparent about pregnancy and motherhood.
And as the dual identity of parent and climber becomes more common, we hope stories like Tracy’s won’t stand out.
Tracy will always be a mom. But, she can also be a climber. She can hold one in each hand while we work to dismantle the notion that motherhood has to come at the price of one’s identity—instead of being integrated as a part of it.
(TW): I love climbing. I always have, and it’s been a consistent part of my life. And I always think I’ve had a good relationship with it, in the fact that maybe one of my best attributes is that I’m pretty gentle with myself. Like, I don’t take myself too seriously.
I’ve been able to ebb and flow [with] injuries. And I realized at one point after I wrecked my shoulder when I was twenty-seven, as I was climbing some 5.7 in Red Rock, just thinking, “Oh my god. I love climbing and this 5.7 is the most fun thing ever, and I’ll be doing this for my whole life.”
And when I was about six and a half months pregnant, I had one of those awesome harnesses that went over my belly.
(laughs)
We were in Maple Canyon. And, at that point, I was just toproping, but we were on a trip with students and I had the best day cleaning all the routes. And then, it was like two days later, we were back and we went to Thompson Creek—this other local area.
And I did half a route and I was like, “Oh my god. I am done.” Like, my ligaments feel weird! I don’t know where I am in my body anymore. And for me, I remember being like, “Ok, it was super fun and now I’m to the point where I’m kinda like, ’Nope. I think I’m just gonna finish my pregnancy to the end.’”
And I’m not a big internet researcher about things kind of, anyway. I mean, that kind of is a little bit more the emotional intuitiveness. But when you’re in a moment like that, and this was pre-pandemic, but I can only imagine how much that would have been exacerbated post-pandemic when you weren’t seeing anyone.
But there was just this desire to connect—with moms or the climbing industry or any of that. Yeah, the only information I could find on the internet was Beth Rodden, which is great and it’s awesome to have that. I think since that time, there’s been more pro women, like Angie Payne, who’d been kind of telling their stories of parenthood.
But there wasn’t a lot of guidance as far as being out there—and trying to make it work. And so, getting back into climbing—not only with one kid, which was kind of easier at that time.
We had a former student Callie, who came with us on a trip to Ten Sleep, Wyoming, and then, also Maple Canyon that summer. So, we had two great trips with Callie. And we had a third who also loved our kid and wanted to spend time with her and be with us and all of that. Then, when we had Remy, it was different.
BJ’s a very supportive partner, in general. And so, those times in which I was like, “Should I really be going out right now? Because I’m gonna have to do these things that are difficult and pump at the car or whatever.” You know, he always was like, “Yes, you should.” And he gave me everything I needed to do that.
I think there’s some mom martyrdom that’s inherent, but then, there’s just some that I think is societally put on women, as well—where they wanna feel like a good mom, so they don’t wanna go out climbing all day and not be with their kids.
And I get it! I mean, I really wanted to be with my kids. I love my kids. I’m a good mom. And I also think that I can be a better mom and a better person if I’m filling my cup and getting outside and doing the things that I need to do.
And so, one pretty impactful trip was when we went with Wyatt—‘cause again, everyone needs a Wyatt.
(laughs)
And we went to Red Rock and got an Airbnb for two and a half weeks. And at that point, Remy would have been two and a half months old. He was pretty young. He was eating a lot, and I was nursing him and Ressa.
And, at the later part, BJ and I kinda realized that what works best for us is to take turns. And so, at a place like Red Rock, one partner has a day, the next partner has a day. And then, you just keep switching.
And so, Wyatt came with us and we kinda joked that we broke Wyatt because, after eight consecutive days of climbing, he finally was like, “You guys! I can’t do it anymore! You’re one off-one on is not working for me anymore.”
But the first day that we went out, here I have this monstrosity of a pump that weighs three pounds and is the free one you get with insurance and not the best or most sophisticated technology in the world. And Wyatt and I go out climbing, and in my mind, I’m like, “Ok, cool! I get to go climbing. We’ll go to the Gallery and then we’ll go climb Man’s Best Friend and do this two-pitch thing.”
We came back from climbing that day and I was really grateful for climbing. BJ was like, “How was it?”
And I was like, “Oh, it was great.” ‘cause I was pumping in three-hour intervals—two and a half to three-hour intervals. And I said, “It was great, but really, I don’t come to Red Rock to sport climb—“
Not to say anything against Red Rock sport climbing, but those canyons fill me up when I can get high and when I can get deep and when I can get away from everything. And BJ’s like, “Well, you should do that, then.” And I was like, “Well, I’m gonna have to bring my pump. And then I’m gonna have to...“
(trails off)
“—I mean. Could I do that?”
And he was like, “Yeah. You have a battery pack.”
And so, the next day we went and Wyatt’s a really easily approachable, down-to-earth guy and I was like, “Ok, Wyatt. So, I’m gonna be needing to figure out how to pump on these routes,“
(laughs)
And he’s like, “Cool. I’ll just bring a New Yorker.”
We would literally be at the house drinking coffee and I’d be like, “Ok. So, hold on. When am I gonna pump now? So that when I’m at the base—ok. I’ll have to pump at the base. And then, on the sixth or seventh pitch—ok. I’m gonna have to pump. So, is there a ledge? Can I pump on that ledge? Where can you hang out, Wyatt?”
And there wasn’t any stories like that! And not that I’m some badass woman, I mean. Wyatt and I were climbing Solar Slab, Olive Oil—5.7s, 5.8s in Red Rock. It wasn’t that I was deeply shredding the gnar. I was just an average climbing woman who wanted to do what I wanted to do—which was get up high on routes.
It was like this whole other area of climbing that was actually really cool. I was like, this is me figuring out how to make this thing that I love happen. And the way that you have to have it happen is: you have to climb with this big ass pump on your back and hook up your boobs to some belay ledge and sit there for fifteen minutes, every two and a half or three hours to make that happen.
And we joked that Wyatt only—I mean, I think he finished one full New Yorker article on our whole trip. A twenty-five thousand word article or whatever. But I’d get to the top of a belay and be like, “Ok, Wyatt. I’m gonna pump!” and he’d hang out below. And then, when I was ready, I’d pull the rope up and then, we’d just keep going.
And it turned a lot of heads of a lot of guys on that trip because they would all wanna give me shit about my backpack. We, somehow never really—we didn’t interact with a lot of women on that trip, which was kind of an interesting take, I guess. Just the timing.
(KK): Like you just didn’t see a lot [of women] or—?
(TW): Yeah, I guess on the routes that we were at, we just didn’t see a lot [of women] on that trip. And so, Wyatt and I on this—
(laughs)
—on this one—I think this was our Solar Slab day or whatever, ‘cause we were going up the Solar Slab gully and someone saw us and they’re like,
(sarcastically)
“Wow, that’s a big backpack for this route!”
I was like, “Well, I have a breast pump in it.” ‘Cause I was just owning it. I’m like, “Fuck this. People need to hear about this.” And they’d look at me sideways like I had three heads and [as if] they didn’t even know what I was talking about.
And they’d say, “There’s a baby in that pack?”
I’m like, “No. There’s not a baby in the pack.”
And they’d say, “Where’s the baby?”
And I’m like, “The baby’s with her dad back at our Airbnb in Vegas.”
You know, there’s such a lack of education about that kinda stuff in this country because we all hide away our boobs when we’re nursing babies, and we don’t wanna put that out there in any way.
And then, when we broke Wyatt on day eight or whatever, my friend Sam and I went and we did a route. What we wanted to climb was this route called Sweet Thin up at the Brownstone Wall, which is not an easy wall to get to. It’s a lot of hiking up there and then, you’re pretty way up high. And so, we decided to do it.
You know, the experience with Wyatt was amazing. But with Sam, she was my biggest cheerleader on that trip. And I didn’t wanna bring a big, big pump ‘cause at that time, you know, Sweet Thin isn’t the hardest route in the world, but I was actually gonna have to do some real rock climbing. I wasn’t just climbing with this heavy pack with something I could do.
And so, I brought a hand pump. And talk about getting pumped in a different way. Like, you’re sitting there, over and over and over, squeezing your fingers to your palm with this hand pump.
At some point, I was like, “Sam, my right hand is so pumped out! My left hand is so pumped out!” So, Sam was squeezing my breast pump on this ledge at the very top of the Brownstone Wall and she was my biggest cheerleader.
Some guy came up as that whole thing was going on. She was like, “There’s nothing to see here! We’re just pumping. No big deal.” And she was so fun and cool about it. And it was something that you need to know that that is possible—because it’s totally possible.
And it really was so good for just everything about me—my mental health. It was like feminism in action to be like, “Hell yeah! This is what I wanna be doing. I wanna be up here with my friend Sam, and this is the route that we wanna do—and we’re gonna do it. And we’re gonna carry a small little cooler pack with a little, couple blocks of ice to bring our milk back with us.”
And that’s just where I was at that point in my life. And so, that’s what I was gonna do.
(KK): We’re gonna take a short break—so don’t go anywhere. Or…we’re a podcast. You can take us everywhere.
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(TW): Love Maple Canyon. Wyoming—I’ve just deeply fallen in love with the last five or six years, whether it’s Sinks or Wild Iris or Ten Sleep—I’m just drawn to the sport climbing there. And I appreciate the style and the wildness and it’s just a great place to be.
I remember being at Mondo Beyondo—and the bugs were bad—and I’m sitting against the wall and nursing this five-month-old baby with a full bug net over my body. And I have a photo of that and I’m like, “Yeah! That’s where we were.”
We were carrying all the heavy play stuff up to the wall and BJ never wanted to leave me out of that equation, which I think just goes to state the quality that is in our relationship and it just makes me love him more. And it’s needing that partner to be like, “I’m not gonna leave you back at camp if you want to be out climbing.” Which I did!
And so many days where I’m like, “You know what, I’m just tired and I’m hungry and maybe you just go out today.” And he’s like, “No. Just do what you need to do and then, when you’re done with what you need to do, we’ll go.” I think that that’s a really important part of the equation.
(KK): Historically, women have been expected to lay down their passions and tend to the family, and if you don’t do it with a smile, are you even a “good mom”? But gender role reversal is common these days, and kids being raised in an environment of equal parenting, well—it gives us a lot of hope.
But even in those moments when BJ isn’t there, like when Tracy was with Sam or Wyatt or Callie, it’s remembering that as women, we can do hard things and we can continue to maintain our passions, the things that breathe life into us and make us exactly who we are.
(TW): I put in a whole lot of extra work to climb the 5.7 route that I’ve done five times before Red Rock.
(laughs)
But that work was so worthy and necessary to remind me who I was. And so, I think to have these stories out there where the young girls that I climb with here can know that that is a possible thing, and that is something that they can do.
I think back to when I had the opportunity to go on this trip with one of my mentor teachers here. And I knew that he was getting close to retiring and it was in Georgia—kinda like a service civil rights trip. And I was like, “Ahh, ok. Should I do this? I don’t know.”
And BJ’s like, “You should totally do it! This is your number-one mentor. This is a great trip. You have an amazing group of students. You were planning on doing it before Remy. Why can’t you do it?”
And I was like, “You’re right.” And then, I went to the internet.
And I started searching “flying with breastmilk” and the only articles that were coming up were women being like, “On my forty-eight-hour girls’ night out,” — and gosh, the only thing I can find is women being gone for two days. So, me being gone for ten days—am I a bad mom?
Should I not be doing this? Who leaves their three-month-old with their totally capable father who can handle everything and has a freezer full of breast milk—or formula or whatever you’re doing. No judgment with any of that. But I’m like, “Who does that?”
And really, it took me calling a co-worker of mine who used to do a lot of international travel and I was like, “God, am I a bad mom? Should I do this?” And I’m not that insecure, I think, in my motherhood, but this was a moment that was pretty low.
And she was like, “Yes. You should. And they’re gonna tell you at the airport that you can’t bring your breastmilk. And you’re gonna need to say that there’s federal laws that say that you can bring as much milk as you need to—as you pumped. And they’re gonna try to do these things and you need to stand up for yourself.”
And so, I went on that trip and it was professionally so rewarding. I learned so much. I was able to connect with all these students to our nation’s history which is flawed and messed up and we need to teach the young generation [that] you need to be at the equal justice initiative grounds to experience the visceral feelings of the history of this country.
I did that and, again, those students who were on that trip—which, actually included Wyatt ‘cause he was a senior then—they saw me go into the bathroom and pump, and then, all of our Airbnb’s fridges were filled full with milk. And when we flew out of the Georgia Atlanta airport, each of them was holding a cooler of my breastmilk and I flew back with over two hundred and fifty ounces of breast milk.
They all witnessed that. And then, as soon as I got back, it all went into my freezer and Remy—
(pauses)
—he doesn’t think I love him any less—or Ressa—because I wasn’t there during that point.
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