Episode 47: How We Grow
Kids have a lot of questions when someone in their family is sick. But when you don't know to ask, certain things become the norm. In our parent’s generation, bipolar disorder wasn’t as widely talked about, nor given the compassionate treatment it deserves. Becca is changing that.
Becca grew up with a dad who has bipolar disorder. She, herself, has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and her research exploring the effects of climbing on women with mental illness and the ways it can be used to increase self-efficacy, resiliency, and locus of control is currently under academic review.
For the Love of Climbing is presented by Patagonia. Additional support is from deuter USA, Allez Outdoor, and Ocún.
Music is by Chad Crouch. Additional music is licensed by Music Bed.
Photograph courtesy of Nick Rothenbush.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
(KATHY KARLO): This podcast is presented by Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia’s in business to save our home planet.
- This podcast is sponsored by deuter, one of the leading backpack brands that will help you hit the trails with confidence and comfort, but most importantly—your snacks. Deuter has a history of first ascents and alpine roots. Their head of product development even climbed Everest once, in jeans (hashtag not fake news.) Founded in 1898, Deuter believes in fit, comfort, and ventilation—so you can focus on way cooler things like puppies, pocket bacon, and gettin’ sendy, whether at the crag or in the alpine.
(FEMALE VOICE): Today we’re going to talk about “allez”. “Allez” means “come on!” in a way, or to encourage. Ok! We are done with the simple and normal uses of “allez”, now let’s cut to the chase:
(KK): Allez Outdoor Personal Care products are made by climbers for those who love the outdoors. Their rich and repairing ingredients for their skincare collection are inspired by desert landscapes, and their simple and recyclable packaging makes them eco-sustainable. Allez commits to protecting the open spaces that we love by partnering with the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. That’s Allez Outdoor: “A-L-L-E-Z”). Allez Outdoor—made by climbers, for those who love the outdoors.
(MALE VOICE): Ocún?
(bell dinging)
(FEMALE VOICE): No.
(MALE VOICE #2): Ocún?
(MALE VOICE #3): Nope.
(MALE VOICE #4): Ocún?
(MALE VOICE #3): Really?
(FEMALE VOICE #2): Ocún?
(KK): Who is Ocún? More than prolific crack climbing gloves, Ocún has been making innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance since 1998. Their climbing shoe designs are all original, developed and manufactured in Czech Republic and one hundred percent gender neutral. Beyond their sticky rubber, Ocún is renowned for their hardware, harnesses, and the biggest lightest crash pad on the market. Find your new favorite climbing shoes and accessories at Backcountry, Moosejaw, Camp Saver, and Amazon.
(BECCA WALLINGFORD): I’ll never forget my first time going to T-Wall back in probably, I wanna say it was 2012. We were living in Nashville. We went down right after New Year’s and it was my first experience being around a lot of people [where being afraid was ok] and everyone was so supportive in verbiage and just the energy. And that energy spreads—and just feeling accepted.
In 2011, I was in a pretty bad climbing accident and had to get reconstructive facial surgery. And at that time, I was having anxiety attacks almost every time climbing—even on toprope. So, I didn’t wanna go—and went, anyway. And just that energy—we can all feel it. And I think that that needs to be encouraged and accepted more often of, “Everyone experiences trauma so differently, and we all have it and it will forever change us.”
And instead of putting people down for not doing the scary route—understanding that, them maybe not doing that or not finishing a route, is the healthiest thing for them in that moment. And just being more humanistic with it, right?
(KK): Kids have a lot of questions when someone in their family is sick. But when you don't know to ask, certain things become the norm. In our parent’s generation, bipolar disorder wasn’t as widely talked about, nor given the compassionate treatment it deserves. Becca is changing that.
Becca grew up with a dad who had bipolar disorder. She, herself, has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and her research exploring the effects of climbing on women with mental illness and the ways it can be used to increase self-efficacy, resiliency, and locus of control is currently under academic review.
(BW): So, my name’s Becca Wallingford. I’m a small girl from Appalachia who loves to get to know people and their heart. I love rock climbing for the things that it does for all of us. And I’m originally from Maysville, Kentucky—a really small town about an hour and a half north of the Red.
I’m the seventh generation of my family born there. And so, I grew up in the house that my grandma was born in. Funny enough, I found out—this is random—my great-grandmother was actually born in the Kaymoor Mine. And if you go to the New now, you’ll see the remains of that when you go down to that climbing area. And I guided there with Jim Taylor for three years, and so, I lived in the New for three years. Now I live in Lander, Wyoming. And yeah, I’ve been here on and off for about ten years—permanently, for about five.
During the time, I decided I wanted to go back to grad school to get my Masters in social work at the University of Wyoming, which was probably the best decision I’ve made in my life. Not only for job aspects of it but also just like, personal growth and figuring things out. ‘Cause my whole goal within it was: How do we integrate mental well-being and understanding mental illness within the climbing community, in the climbing realm? So, I ended up doing a qualitative study on women living with mental illness who are rock climbers, and was able to have these very impactful, wonderful, inspirational conversations with nine women.
And from that, I also grew to realize that part of my own journey was going back in time and realizing my own history with trauma, and then my own history with my own serious mental illness.
(ALEX HONNOLD) (to himself): Ok, I’m Alex Honnold. You’re listening to the love of climbing podcast. It’s a funny, sad, somewhat uncomfortable podcast—
(louder)
I was like, “Wow, this is the opposite of my podcast. But, you know, here we go!”
(laughs)
(upbeat music)
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing—”
—is it “to the”? Or “to—“ Do you say “to For the Love of Climbing Podcast”?
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast.”
Yeah. Yeah, I see it.
“You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. This is not a climbing podcast. Well, sorta. It’s a funny, sad, and somewhat uncomfortable podcast about choosing vulnerability. Here’s the show.”
Easy cheesy!
(KK): Hey, a quick heads up. This episode discusses bipolar disorder and abuse. Reach out for support if you’re struggling with mental illness.
(BW): I was talking to my mom earlier today about a few things, ‘cause I went through a lot of stuff with my dad and, you know, you don’t wanna shame your family. And she was like, “You know, you can’t protect him forever.”
So, I feel better now talking about that kinda stuff. This is the first time that I’m exposing my experience. And so, I may cry a bit.
(exhales)
Woof, yeah.
So, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder type 1 at the age of twelve, put on medication at the age of fifteen after a pretty intense intervention with my family. And then I hid it! — for a long time. The only people that knew were my family members and very, very close friends. Up until about three years ago, I wanna say—or maybe four years ago, I would go to extreme lengths to hide medication that I was taking, to make excuses for acting particular ways.
And it’s interesting—a podcast called “The Hilarious World of Depression”— John Moe, the host of that podcast and makeitok.org really started me on my journey of saying, “Who I am is not somebody to be ashamed of and people need to know the truth.”
(KK): Can any of you recognize what stigma towards mental illness looks like? Have you caught yourself in a moment of, maybe, unconscious bias? Because I have. Consider this riddle: A man takes his son skiing but is killed in an avalanche. The avalanche also badly injures his son. He’s then taken to the hospital but, upon seeing him, the surgeon says: “I can’t operate, he’s my son.” How is this possible?
This question was asked as part of a gender study on unconscious bias by a College of Arts & Science psychology professor. The study found that 15% had the correct answer, which revealed a deeply held bias in the participant group. But few of these people would likely be considered sexist. It’s a great example of our unconscious bias. We’re not always aware of the factors that influence us, but our ideologies and subsequent thoughts and actions are swayed by unconscious bias, every day.
Have you ever distanced yourself from someone after learning they have a mental illness, or maybe been afraid to say something, for fear of their reaction? Do some mental illnesses feel scary to you? Educating ourselves on mental illness and its impact, talking openly with those affected, and sharing knowledge with others can help overcome the stigma.
(BW): And even since then, it’s been ups and downs, right? Vulnerability’s so hard and feeling safe with people is so hard. And I’ve had multiple experiences with bosses or even mental health professionals, where I say, “Ok, do you think that this is alright to share?”
And I had a boss that said, “Really glad that you told me—don’t tell anyone else. ‘Cause as a climbing guide, people won’t trust you.” And then, I had a therapist tell me that it was best if I kept these things to myself. And I’ve been asked quite a bit, once I’ve become more open, “Why do you think that people need to know?” And I try at least, to only share it when it’s purposeful, right? I’m not just gonna go in and open book for folks.
And I think that right now is a time it’s purposeful. Like, we need to normalize this and understand that within these complicated, serious mental illnesses, we can lead lives full of love and community and have healthy relationships and be able to do the work.
And along with that, it’s also important, as climbers, to be able to be open so that you can tell your partner, “Hey—if I go into a panic attack—here are some things that help me.” Because we’re not on our own. Our decisions, our actions, our emotional well-being affects other people that we’re with in these extreme environments. And by normalizing that, we can talk about it more and be able to communicate better with the people around us, so that we’re healthier and they also feel supported.
My mom’s a school psychologist and so, I grew up in a home where feelings were very accepted. She is my number one, my end-all, be-all. She is it. And—youngest of three sisters. I love them. They’re my best friends. They are also my biggest support.
And then, I grew up in the house that my grandma was born in. Like, in a very small town—seven thousand people, so [not that small], but everyone knew my grandparents. We are sitting on couches that came from my grandma’s house. And I was told stories of ghost horses that run around and grew up on a farm.
But within that is kind of a darker side of my dad, who—
(pauses)
—I should start with, now, I have forgiven. We are—
(pauses)
We’re doing well. He’s seventy now. And he finally will admit he thinks he has undiagnosed bipolar disorder. My dad was hard. Emotionally abusive, physically abusive. He was not somebody who felt a lot. He was not someone who particularly wanted to spend time with kids. Looking back now, when he did spend time with my sisters and I and the happy times, it was clearly manic.
But I mean, those times were great. But it still makes it hard when you grow up in a house where you’re walking on eggshells all the time. Like, you know, every morning we would make our breakfast with the lights off because he’d be screaming at my mom in the bathroom. Man, but—like, you were talking about resiliency and I will say, now looking back on that and understanding I had open wounds that, going through social work opened it up even more. Which makes camping in Vedauwoo and shutting off your phone—
(laughs)
—when you’re in grad school even that much more important—‘cause you’re processing so many things! But when I look at him now as not just my dad, but a person, and realize the amount of things that he’s gone through and understanding that he grew up in an abusive home, and his trauma affected the way that he raised us. And he let the stigma of mental illness make it so that he never got help.
And that goes back to the whole point. It doesn’t just affect us—it affects our kids, it affects our loved ones. And then, that goes back to a fantastic study done that identified that connective-ness is the number one predictor for psychological resiliency. And so, moving forward, and one of the main reasons I reached out to you was—I was thinking about, “Well, what if someone like my dad—a tough guy from Appalachia—what would it take for him to go see a therapist?” You know?
(KK): It’s 2023 and Gen Zs are astronomically changing the conversation about mental health. As the generation to grow up in the first all-digital era, Gen Zers are on track to be one of the most educated, racially, and ethnically diverse generations, though burdened by small things like a global pandemic, concerns about climate change, increase in gun violence, and an overall uncertainty of access to healthcare, government, and finances. So, is Gen Z actually more depressed than other generations?
It actually comes down to a study conducted by the APA that found that Gen Z is significantly more likely than any previous generation to seek help for mental health conditions. It’s fair to assume that they deal with less stigma compared to previous generations, but still experience it related to mental health, current world issues, and their communities.
But before Gen Z, there’s a whole generational cohort comprised of adults between their late fifties and early to mid-seventies. Many of them experienced major historical impacts, like post-war, and the overall concept of mental health during this coming of age often came in the limited context of mental institutions. With insufficient resources, shame and derogatory labels filled the vacuum instead, resulting in a skeptical and dismissive approach toward treatment.
Of note, generations are socially constructed and the specific details of each demographic are established over time by both expert and public opinion. People who fall into the category of Becca’s father’s age face a significant learning curve, and growing up likely didn’t have the same support.
Becca was diagnosed with bipolar disorder during a time when more resources were widely available to her as a young adult. We have to keep in mind—that this information just didn’t exist in the same context that it does today and also understand that while things can be the reason, they don’t always get to be our excuse.
(BW): But now looking at him as not just my dad, but a human and understanding the amount of things that he’s gone through—of his sister dying of walking pneumonia. And then, him being in an accident and having to get brain surgery. And so, part of my dad—we’re now realizing part of my dad’s frontal lobe was removed.
(pauses)
A part of his stigma with mental illness was because he saw his mom be put on lithium— who had pretty severe bipolar disorder. She suffered a lot and went through, what now we would consider a psychotic break. And so, he saw that happen, he experienced abuse from her, but he doesn’t remember a lot of these things. He totally disassociated [from] a lot of them. And last year, he apologized. He told me he was really proud of me of being open about having bipolar disorder with my friends. And I said, “Dad, do you remember what you said to me when I got on medication? You said that that was the greatest weakness—to be put on meds.”
And he was sitting on this couch and he said, “I am so sorry.” And hearing that was just like—
(exhales)
In Appalachia, you’re family, no matter what. I would say the norm is [that you do anything and everything to protect your family]. And just that experience of, again, feeling heard, feeling validated by someone—who, for so many years felt like this big scary bear—was so incredibly powerful. So, I still feel like I would do anything for my family and I—god, I love ‘em. And things change. People change, right? But it was hard for a while. [It was probably about five years] between the last time I experienced physical abuse and seeing that change and being like, “Ok.”
You put somebody into one category of this “evil person” because that’s easy. And then, realizing how complicated they are—and then, forgiveness. But once you get there, you feel like you can take a deep breath for the first time.
(KK): Becca talked about putting people into the “bad guy” category, which is often how mental illness gets portrayed in the media. Studies consistently show that the dominant representation in media and entertainment miss the mark on mental health by depicting overwhelmingly dramatic images of mental illness that dangerously hyperbolize unpredictability and criminality.
There are two common types of stigmatization in media: social and self, which is when those with a mental health disorder perceive public stigma and then internalize it.
(BW): People don’t realize the amount of work that goes into living with a mental illness. Like you mentioned, it’s a part of you—but it’s also work. You are, every day, you’re asking yourself consistently, “Am I being normal? Am I acting quote, unquote ‘crazy’?” And I believe that in our tight-knit community of climbing, we have such an opportunity to take a small step in understanding each other.
You know, one in five people in the United States will have experienced some sort of mental illness in their lifetime, and hiding it is not helpful for anyone—for the loved ones that are living with that person ‘cause they also need support, for the person going through it, and then, also as mentioned, the climbing partners that need to understand: “Ok, these are the things that are helpful. This is not helpful.”
And there’s no reason to hide it, anymore, I think.
(KK): We’re gonna take a short break. We’ll be back.
- Patagonia introduces its newest podcast, Patagonia Stories. In each episode, they’ll explore how we gather knowledge and ask questions about our relationship to each other and the natural world.
(FEMALE VOICE): It was like one of those cartoons where the lightbulb goes off. I thought, “Oh, my god! Plants aren’t just takers—they’re also givers!”
(MALE VOICE): Humans have gotten it wrong so many times, you know, why should we assume that we’re getting it right this time?
(MALE VOICE): I was sentenced to life with the possibility of parole. I used to look outside and I would see all of the birds lined up in the morning. And that almost kind of became a ritual for me—some kinda way to feel the harmony of nature and the flow.
(NON-BINARY VOICE): Something that’s often thrown around as a cliche in the climbing world is you have the other person’s life in your hands! It’s not really what you’re thinking about most of the time, but you definitely have someone’s well-being in your hands.
(KK): Questions like, how do lessons get passed down through generations? What barriers prevent us from acquiring natural wisdom? And how can we adapt in the face of a rapidly changing climate? Tune in for a new episode every Thursday—that’s wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll see you there. Doesn’t this music just scream “quintessential podcast ad?” I love it.
(KK): It’s all too common that “mental health” and “mental illness” get used interchangeably, as if they mean the same thing. But not everyone will experience mental illness in their lifetime. We all have mental health and it exists on a spectrum, and while good mental health often gets associated with being happy, it’s not entirely accurate. And likewise, a period of feeling mentally unwell doesn’t mean that you have a mental illness. Ultimately, these are conversations that will impact all of us.
In Becca’s research, her job as a social worker, and her own mental health journey, she answers the question of what we, as a communal group, can do in support of one other.
(BW): And I would say, the biggest thing is communal support in ways of conversations. So, instead of at a crag when somebody’s getting afraid or showing emotion—not particularly looking at that as ‘they’re being so weak right now,” or “They can’t handle it.” Because you have no idea the trauma that that person has gone through.
Especially with trauma, we experience it in our brain stem in and decision-making pieces in our cortex. So, a lot of times, that individual doesn’t even know what’s going on. I think just changing the conversation to: We all get afraid, and that’s ok. Our fight, flight, freeze response is integrated into who we become. So, understanding behaviors and this realization of, “When I’m in certain environments—that’s why I react this way.” And understanding the connection is so refreshing because our brain stem isn’t always connecting to our decision-making! And people will say, “Why are you having this anxiety attack?” And you feel helpless when you’re saying, “I don’t know!”
“What’s your triggers?”—“I don’t know!”
That realization that that’s a part of how we work through it. It’s all about recognizing. And then, instead of always going to the root of it, just working on the coping skills. And that’s where going back with working with climbing partners comes in, as well. And then, people don’t realize folks that are living with mental illnesses: if they’re on medications, those medications also have severe side effects—a lot of them.
And so, if you’re on a big mission—like, for instance, last year we went out for a day mission into the Winds and did Brown Cow. Your partners need to know if the medication that you’re on makes you extra thirsty, or if it gives you tremors, or all of these physical things that the people that you’re out there need to know to keep you both safe.
(KK): In 2021, a climbing party of three with the intention to summit Dhaulagiri, a 26k peak in Nepal, abandoned their expedition to scale the unclimbed Northwest Ridge when a team member had a change of heart. It was later diagnosed as an episode of mania and depression, a symptom of bipolar disorder.
I think most of us would make the same call had it been any of us sitting at basecamp with a broken bone, but as former climber Cory Richards mused, “Because mental wellness is a topic of the mind and unseen except through behavior, it’s nearly incomprehensible for people to apply the same logic and objectivity to it. I can’t demand the world understand my experience, but I can ask that they believe it’s true.”
There are no simple answers or easy paths when it comes to dealing with the life of highs and lows that mental illness can bring. There will be equal parts difficult days and decisions. It also doesn’t mean that folks should stop living their lives, either. Because a mental condition doesn’t have to mean a life sentence of suffering, and individuals discover that stability is unique to their experience. Same as in climbing, each person has to find their own way to get to the top, and everybody’s summit might look a little different.
Things have changed since Becca’s dad grew up. The conversations taking place at the intersection of mental health and mental illness are changing the way we collectively see disorders, and women like Becca are helping make that change happen.
(BW): We brought out a group from Omaha, Nebraska—a non-profit formally called the Buford Foundation. And this year and 2019, they had two transgender folks. And hearing the discussions that they were having with their fellow participants of: “I would prefer this pronoun. If you forget, that’s ok.” And the participants asking, “Ok. Well, let me know so I can fix it.”
And, you know, it’s a scholarship-based program. It’s so amazing. Most of the young people are coming from lower socioeconomic class—across all religions, ethnicities. And just hearing those conversations and working at the elementary and middle school. And the conversations that young people are having—it’s the most inspiring thing to see, “Ok, this is where we’re headed.”
And that brings us back to the climbing community. We can jump on that bandwagon and take it. And we already are, I believe. But there’s a large piece of our community, I think, that are resistant to that change. But spend a week at a middle school, man.
(laughs)
And they’re building their resiliency every day, and I think that that’s a big thing to always remember: resiliency is not a trait. It’s a flow. So, there are certain days that your resiliency is so high. And there are other days where you feel like you can’t handle. And that is no detriment to your personal traits. We work on it; it’s something we work on constantly!
But then, when you listen to people’s stories and dive a little deeper, you realize—“the ability to bounce back”—what does that mean? What does that look like? Is bouncing back going climbing—jumping back on the horse, quote, unquote? Or is that taking a day to say, “I’m going to watch eight episodes of Schitt’s Creek today,” because that could also be bouncing back! You know? Resiliency is a lot about forgiveness of “what’s good for me, today?” And it’s gonna look different.
Climbing builds resiliency, self-determination, and internal locus of control in so many different facets, right? And so, I had multiple themes within this. It was a woman’s background with trauma which, all nine had backgrounds with pretty severe trauma, whether acute or complex. And what climbing did for them in building resiliency is taking back control in the vertical realm, a phenomenological study on female rock climbers living with mental illness.
And that control—physical control, mental control, building coping skills, the resiliency that’s built by literally us falling all the time. And being able to openly talk about failure with other climbers and normalizing failure was the biggest—It was so cool. These conversations were so inspiring in that way. I’m just gonna read a quick quote from them:
“When I was going through the worst moments of my life, climbing made me realize that I can take control. It’s hard, it sucks, and it’s not gonna happen overnight. But I can do it.”
And that, I think, sums up what climbing can do for us and it sums it up for me, as well, of my personal experience with climbing and the ebbing and the flowing of expectations and then, forgiving ourselves for not fulfilling a project. Climbing isn’t always the answer, and there are days that climbing is going to help and there are days that climbing isn’t. But the consistent, I guess, answer is that, at the end of the day, we’re growing through, not just the act of climbing, but the people around us, as well.
(exhales)
(KK): Barely cried!
(both laugh)
(BW): I know! Oh, man…
(KK): How are you feeling?
(BW): I’m good! This was—not dark. I was worried about going into a dark hole and I think you’re a wonderful facilitator for conversations. Now it’s like happy tears.
(laughs) (fades)
(KK): You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. A huge thank you to Deuter, one of the leading backpack brands that will help you hit the trails with confidence and comfort. A big shout out to Allez Outdoor for supporting the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. And a big thank you to Ocún—innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance. And thanks to Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia is in business to save our home planet.
Support companies who support this podcast—we couldn’t do it without them. If you liked what you heard, you can leave a review on iTunes or give us a like—like all good things, you can find us on the internet.
(BW): I love James Baldwin for someone being a person of color—also a gay man in that time and an influential person, and not willing to back off when the social justice causes were saying, “Well, you’re too much.” And he wrote an article for Esquire when he was living in France: “Hope is invented every day.”
And on my darkest days if I was just like, “I can’t get out of bed” I’d be like, “Remember hope was invented every day. And whatever hope looks like for you today, that’s ok.” So, hope could just be like—taking a shower.