Episode 48: We Are the Currents
Before starting this podcast, I often thought that one of the hardest things to do in the world is to change someone’s mind, and I noodled on the “how” for almost two years. That was in late 2016. For the Love of Climbing launched in 2018. Podcasts are funny things, and there are all sorts of formats and each one is different. There are no wrong formats. The majority of them are interview podcasts (Q&A style) or conversational (co-hosted format). While I love conversational chemistry, I opted for non-fictional storytelling + news because it gave me creative flexibility with editing and production to bring stories to life. (There’s a lot of pre-planning involved, from selecting guests to research to post-production, so during deadline crunches I sometimes regret this.)
Ultimately, podcasts are about listening to an experience. This brings me back to my conundrum in 2016—how do you change someone’s mind? Fostering space for folks to speak by removing myself put me in the “active listening” arena. This really allows guests to be in the limelight and let the focus be entirely on the essence of their message. I try to guide these conversations, but have learned so much from just shutting the fuck up and listening. Truth be told, it’s evoked a lot of change and growth in my life, and I hope it’s done the same for some of you, too.
Five years later, it’s still hard to have hard conversations, especially when it comes to polarizing topics within our society. It’s not wrong to disagree with ideas, but the problem is that ideas and people have become so inseparable. We’ve developed a bit of a “my-way-or-the-highway” mentality and social media—often so valuable in uniting community—has amplified some of the discord. And instead of hearing each other out, we tend to build allegiance with those who share similar values, while disassociating ourselves from the rest. This “us vs them” dichotomy keeps us locked in an echo chamber, and the problem with that is that it’s hard to see beyond what we already know.
Civil discourse is a dying art, a complex practice that takes patience and well-rounded perspective to really master. Have you heard of Daryl Davis? He’s an American blues jazz musician and activist known for playing boogie-woogie style piano, but more famously known for challenging white supremacy by…hanging out with a known Klan leader? That’s right. Davis devoted a lifetime to engaging directly with KKK members by attending rallies and starting dialogue, and he’s converted over two hundred Klan members to leave the organization. But how?
Asking folks to be brave enough to make their convictions vulnerable means really listening, for both sides—it’s not a one-way street. Surrounding ourselves with like-minded people is important to build community, but it doesn’t mean that we should build walls to ignore opposition. That’s not change. On an individual level, through clear and kind conversation, it’s more possible than we think.
“Racism is trickle-up. If you want to solve problems in a business, you often have to address issues at the top. It doesn’t work that way with racism. If you start with destruction at the top, it’s too late. Look at George Floyd. To address bigotry, you have to start at the bottom, addressing the ignorance that precedes fear, hatred, anger, and destruction. Education is a cure to ignorance. Expose and educate people to the things they don’t understand. You can make laws, but people don't change how they feel until they realize that they’re wrong on their own.” - Davis (You can read more of his interview in the Harvard International Review “In the Lions' Den: A Conversation with Daryl Davis”)
Meanwhile, GOP lawmakers are working aggressively to limit trans rights and there’s a surge of anti-trans bills at the state level ahead of 2024. Supporters of these bills have a narrow-minded view of who trans people are, and this misinformation and disinformation abet more uncertainty and fear. Lex speaks to the importance of needing more people who aren’t in danger to speak up and push back on anti-trans narrative while working toward a future where trans and genderqueer joy is a given and equality, representation, and inclusion aren’t just buzzwords, but a glance backward at a stagnant past.
Change is coming. Change is here. And trans people are undeniably the currents of these crucial changes, and for each other.
For the Love of Climbing is presented by Patagonia. Additional support is from deuter USA, Allez Outdoor, and Ocún.
Music is by Chad Crouch. Additional music is licensed by Music Bed. Sound effects by Jonathan Shaw.
Photo courtesy of Nikki Smith.
Catch up on podcast (pod-Kath?) updates and general life things: @inheadlights
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
(KATHY KARLO): This podcast is presented by Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia’s in business to save our home planet.
- It’s 2023, and modern climbers are more accomplished than ever, and we don’t just mean on the wall. Patagonia has always seen the value in being bold, whether it means pushing highpoints or having the audacity to demand more for our planet.
So, what’s it mean to be a “strong climber”? Full commitment to the sport and to our communities. It means not just working towards futuristic first ascents but also, a better future. And we aren’t going to get there alone.
For Patagonia’s 50th year, we’re looking forward, not back and together, we can prioritize purpose over profit to protect this planet. Get involved, read stories to get you out there, and join a community that values what we do off the wall as much as we do on. Because we’re Bolder Together. Find out more at patagonia.com/climbing.
- We get support from deuter, one of the leading backpack brands that will help you hit the trails with confidence and comfort, but most importantly—your snacks. Founded in 1898, deuter believes in fit, comfort, and working in the long term to offset CO2 emissions by teaming up with Climate Partner to invest in social and climate offset projects worldwide for select product—including their Guide and Vertrail climbing packs.
deuter packs are PFC-free—meaning no forever chemicals and they honor their Promise Lifetime Warranty since their packs were meant to be on your back, and not in landfills. So, you can focus on way cooler things like puppies, pocket bacon, and gettin’ sendy—whether at the crag or in the alpine.
(FEMALE VOICE): Today we’re going to talk about “allez”. “Allez” means “come on!” in a way, or to encourage. Ok! We are done with the simple and normal uses of “allez”, now let’s cut to the chase:
(KK): Allez Outdoor Personal Care products are made by climbers for those who love the outdoors. Their rich and repairing ingredients for their skincare collection are inspired by desert landscapes, and their simple and recyclable packaging makes them eco-sustainable. Allez commits to protecting the open spaces that we love by partnering with the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. That’s Allez Outdoor: “A-L-L-E-Z”). Allez Outdoor—made by climbers, for those who love the outdoors.
(KK): Who is Ocún? More than prolific crack climbing gloves, Ocún has been making innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance since 1998. Their climbing shoe designs are all original, developed and manufactured in Czech Republic and completely, one hundred percent gender neutral. Beyond their sticky rubber, Ocún is renowned for their hardware, harnesses, and the biggest lightest crash pad on the market. Find your new favorite climbing shoes and accessories at Backcountry, Moosejaw, CampSaver, and Amazon.
(KK): Civil discourse is a dying art, a complex practice that takes patience and well-rounded perspective to really master. It’s not about standing on the hill of eventually which you will die, but clear communication and active listening. Its growing absence is due to a breakdown in this communication, and more so, the willingness to.
It’s hard to have hard conversations—it’s even harder to try and change someone’s mindset. It’s not wrong to disagree with ideas, but the problem is ideas and people have become so inseparable. We’ve developed a bit of a “my-way-or-the-highway” mentality and social media—often so valuable in uniting community—has amplified some of the discord. We default to a “yell-like-hell” tactic when faced with anyone who might think differently, or have questions, or maybe miss the point entirely.
Instead of hearing each other out, we tend to build allegiance with those who share similar values, while disassociating ourselves from the rest. The “us vs them” dichotomy also keeps us in an echo chamber, and the problem with that is that it’s hard to see beyond what we already know.
Have you heard of Daryl Davis? He’s an American blues jazz musician and activist known for playing boogie-woogie style piano, but more famously known for challenging white supremacy by…hanging out with a known Klan leader? That’s right. Davis devoted a lifetime to engaging directly with KKK members by attending rallies and starting dialogue, and he’s converted over two hundred Klan members to leave the organization. But how?
Davis starts with finding common ground as people, rather than opposing issues. He also gave these white supremacists a chance to speak. Surrounding ourselves with like-minded people is important to build community, but it doesn’t mean that we should build walls to ignore opposition. That’s not change. But on an individual level, through clear and kind conversation, it’s more possible than we think.
And in the same vein of listening more, this episode, we are also embracing the subtle art of shutting the fuck up.
(clapping)
(VOICE OF TREVOR NOAH): I’m gonna say from the top because I’ve noticed this happens in every conversation. Every time you bring up trans rights or if you have a discussion and you say “trans”, people tense up. We live in a world where, now, there are people who are so transphobic that it makes it almost impossible for people who aren’t to ask any questions, to have any conversations, to have any discourse that doesn’t lump them in with transphobia.
And so, I’m really glad that you’re joining us on the show to talk about this because it feels like one of the biggest issues in America, and yet, no one can seem to talk about it. So, let’s start with your journey…
(Trevor fades)
(LEX RODGERS): Just because someone hasn’t had the exposure and doesn’t necessarily have the education and the knowledge, I don’t think that automatically makes them not worth interacting with because we’re all gonna know someone who’s trans—whether that person’s in your family or one of your best friends or at your work. There’s trans people everywhere, and they’re in West Virginia. They’re in the South. They’re in California. They’re everywhere. So, I think it’s worth having these conversations and I would say, just don’t write anybody off, you know, just because they don’t have all the information.
(ALEX HONNOLD) (to himself): Ok, I’m Alex Honnold. You’re listening to the love of climbing podcast. It’s a funny, sad, somewhat uncomfortable podcast—
(louder)
I was like, “Wow, this is the opposite of my podcast. But, you know, here we go!”
(laughs)
(upbeat music)
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing—”
—is it “to the”? Or “to—“ Do you say “to For the Love of Climbing Podcast”?
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast.”
Yeah. Yeah, I see it.
“You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. This is not a climbing podcast. Well, sorta. It’s a funny, sad, and somewhat uncomfortable podcast about choosing vulnerability. Here’s the show.”
Easy cheesy!
(LR): What did—somebody very recently told me something and I was like, “Oh, my god. That’s hilarious.” I think one of my friends recently told me that I am exactly who I am, and I’m not willing to adjust that for anyone and I’m quite honest and do not hide my expressions very well and how I feel—it’s not hidden. And it’s very hard for some people at times to respond to that kind of honesty. But, this particular person appreciated it and thought that it was refreshing to know someone that is just absolutely themselves all the time. And that’s what I hope to put out there—I just wanna be me. I don’t wanna have to hide who I am because I did that for way too long.
(KK): Mm, I love that.
(LR): My name’s Lex and I’m from West Virginia, but I’ve been living in Boulder, Colorado, and working at the Boulder Rock Club—a climbing gym in Boulder. And climbing a lot! River surfing, skating, having fun.
(KK): You do it all. You’re basically like, a triathlon person.
(LR): Oh, I don’t know about that! No, especially not in Boulder. I feel like everybody’s an elite athlete in Boulder and I’m just out there having fun, that’s all.
(KK): (laughs)
(LR): I think some key components of my identity are that I’m queer. I’m trans. “Trans man” has been a way, an identity or a way to describe myself that I’ve identified more or less with throughout the years. And then, “transmasculine” has kind of come into the vernacular a little bit more which is—how do I describe? Hm, these are tough things to define.
It’s not so binary. I think “transmasculine” is encompassing more masculinity that’s outside of the binary, and “transmasculine” probably most closely represents me at this time. Just ‘cause although I think society definitely perceives me as a man, I don’t know that personally that I quite fit into that box of the binary quite so neatly in a lot of other ways.
But also a climber. It’s a big part of my life, and it’s been a big part of my life since 2015 and it’s taken me all over the country and helped me meet some of the most wonderful people in my life and some of my best friends and I’ve created a whole community around it. And if I’d lived closer to the ocean, I might say “surfer” a little bit more confidently. Yeah, so. That’s kinda where I am right now, I’d say. It’s kinda equal, you know?
(KK): (laughs)
(LR): It’s kinda just, all me.
(laughs)
You know, I think a lot of people don’t even realize that they know trans people, and they don’t realize that they’ve met trans people. I think one of the tough things, for me, about society perceiving me sometimes as a man and not having any idea—a lot of people don’t have any idea that I’m trans—is sometimes, I don’t get seen by my own community. And that kind of invisibility is tough. And, you know, everybody has their own struggles. I have a ton of privilege in the fact that I can navigate the world without always having people know that I’m trans. There’s a lot of safety in that, at times, and I don’t take that lightly. I understand that privilege.
But I do feel it necessary at times, and I’ve gotten a lot better at it over the years—a lot more comfortable with it—is sharing who I am and talking about my identity. And people are often quite surprised that I am trans, and they often say, “Well, I’ve never met a trans person before!” I’m like, “Well, have you? You might have, but you didn’t know it. They just didn’t disclose it. Because if I hadn’t told you right now—then you wouldn’t know. You would have still thought that you hadn’t met a trans person.” Because trans people are everywhere and visibility can be really powerful, and it can also be quite dangerous. And that’s an important consideration. And probably a reason why more people aren’t disclosing their identity in more situations.
(VOICE OF NEWSCASTER HEATHER HISCOX): The transgender community in the United States is reeling as Republican lawmakers and prominent conservative figures try to curtail their rights. A record number of bills related to healthcare, access to bathrooms, even drag performances have already been tabled this year in state legislatures.
Madka Ghebreslassie is in Washington with the details and more on what has the community really been saying and concerned about at this time, watching what Republican lawmakers are doing.
(VOICE OF NEWSCASTER MAKDA GHEBRESLASSIE): What’s been happening is a number of Republican-led states have been either passing or proposing new restrictive laws. So, laws covering everything from sports to education to healthcare access. So, you’re seeing bills that are being proposed or passed that would require teachers to out students to their parents, bills that would prevent doctors from giving hormone therapy to trans youth, a legislation that would prevent trans youth from being on sports teams that align with their gender identity.
So, these restrictive laws, either that have been passed or proposed, are showing up in Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona. And take Tennessee—last week, its governor signed a law banning drag shows on public property—also gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth is prohibited there now, and that will take effect in a few months. So, this was also a dominant theme at this week’s—last week’s, rather—conservative political action conference. Take a listen.
(VOICE OF POLITICAL COMMENTATOR MICHAEL KNOWLES): Transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely.
(clapping)
The whole preposterous ideology, at every level.
(VOICE OF REP. MAJORIE TAYLOR GREEN): I ended up putting up a sign outside my office door that said: “There’s only two genders—male and female. Trust the science,”
(clapping fades)
(MG): So, LGBTQ activists are saying what is happening is a full-on attack on the rights of people in the community. Many are worrying that this is just the beginning and they fear and warn that this will put more lives at risk. Take a listen to this talk radio show host and activist.
(VOICE OF RADIO HOST & ACTIVIST MICHELANGELO SIGNORILE): Now, with this law, are you gonna see more people feeling like, “Well, I have to take, you know, the responsible thing here to enforce the law”? Vigilantes—are they gonna be threatening people who are drag performers or transgender people and say, “Well, you know, the law empowers me to do that”? We’re gonna see more violence play out. I think that’s the real fear people have.
(LR): I’m from the eastern panhandle of West Virginia. And growing up in West Virginia, I was in a semi-rural area. I was really happy to be able to spend a lot of time outside at my grandparents’ house. They were on an orchard. Just growing up kinda riding dirt bikes and playing in the woods and going camping. And then, in 2015, there was a very small, local climbing gym in my town. And so, I decided to check it out and try the new hobby. I didn’t know if it was gonna work out because I had cut off my finger, actually—my middle finger, in 2013. Yeah, washing a coffee cup—just cut it right off when I dropped it and tried to catch it.
And so, I walked in and I was like, “Hey, can I just try this out for the day? I don’t know if it’s gonna work out ‘cause this finger thing.” And the—
(laughs)
—the person at the front desk was like, “Well, you know this climber Tommy Caldwell cut off his finger or whatever—you should try it!”
I was like, “Alright!” And I loved it. And so, I started climbing with this affinity group in Rockville, Maryland. I was looking for queer community. And at this time, I wasn’t disclosing that I was queer or trans to really, anyone. And so, people that I was climbing with didn’t know. And there was a part of me that was saying, “I feel like I can’t hide this,” you know? I wanna be around people where I don’t have to feel like I need to hide it. And there was a part of me that just wasn’t ready to disclose that to people that I knew were safe and knew wouldn’t have a bad reaction.
(heart beating)
My heart would just start racing every time that I thought, “Ok, how am I gonna bring this up? Here’s my opportunity.” And I couldn’t do it! So, it took a long road for me to even come to the point where I said, “I’ve gotta find some community here. I wanna find people that have this shared experience, and I wanna start talking about this.”
And so, I looked up “queer climber’s meet-ups” and I found one outside of D.C. And so, I went down there and climbed with the Capital Climbers and an amazing community organizer, Brian Yamasaki**, and he made me feel so comfortable. And I was so nervous—there was only about five of us. But he just opened my eyes to the power of what community can do and having people around you that allow you to express different parts of your identity and have congruence and have sort of alignment in who you’re putting yourself out there [to be] and who you actually are.
After that, they said, “Well, there’s this big climbing convention going on—it’s a queer climbing convention called ‘Homo Climbtastic’. And that’s going on in Fayetteville, West Virginia in the New River Gorge.” And I was like, “Oh, that sounds cool.”
And it was the first time that I’d been around that many queer people—number one. I was totally blown away. And I think growing up in West Virginia, there wasn’t a lot of queer people. You know, I didn’t know that trans men existed growing up! I had absolutely no exposure, and I didn’t figure that out until I was maybe nineteen or twenty years old in college when YouTube came about and everybody was vlogging. And so, there were trans men that were making vlogs and I was watching that and I was like, “Whoa. This is how I feel.”
So, growing up in a place where you don’t have a lot of exposure and there’s not a lot of queer people that are visible to you—and like I was talking about before, it doesn’t necessarily mean they weren’t there. I just didn’t have the ability to congregate. So, visiting the New and kinda falling in love with that place and climbing and I wanted to move there. And I spent a couple years working in the New River Gorge in Fayetteville and it came to the point where I wanted to see the rest of the world a little bit. I wanted to get out.
And I think for queer people, especially growing up in rural areas—I know, at least for me, I really lacked the self-confidence. There was a lot of self-doubt. There was a lot of fear about going to different places because, for me, when I wasn’t feeling very safe in my own home that I’d known for thirty years, it’s very difficult to imagine a future in which I could feel safe and comfortable in a place I had never been.
You know, I’d always had the dream of growing up surfing and I would read skateboard magazines and watch surfing movies and I think I longed for that sort of, cool masculinity that I was seeing. And it was cool to me, it was aspirational for me—these guys that looked just—incredible! Flowing on the ocean and—I can’t explain it. But I think I was seeking some sort of gender euphoria, you know? To do this thing that I had always dreamed about growing up and [I understand that] there’s nothing inherently masculine about surfing, right? It’s—
(laughs)
—that’s ridiculous. But it was something, for me, that felt like a dream. It felt like a dream from childhood that I didn’t think I would ever be able to realize. It felt so far off growing up and I admired it, but I never thought that I would be able to do it. And so, I was like, “I finally got the opportunity to try this. I’ve gotta go for it.”
And my dad had surfed a little bit when he was younger, and so, hearing those stories—it was just something that I just had to go try. So, I went to San Clemente and down to San Diego and up to Santa Cruz, and finally, up to Stinson Beach—up north of San Francisco. Because San Francisco also was somewhere that—obviously, it’s quite a queer city. But I never thought that I would go to San Francisco. I couldn’t imagine myself living in a city or anything, but I had to go see it and just have this cultural experience. You dream about it and you have these visions of things—how they’re gonna be in your mind, and they seem so far out of reach. But there was a longing to just find out.
(sound of waves crashing)
And so, I went up to north of San Francisco and spent the winter up there, surfing and working for a state park and kinda just living the dream, you know? Having this thing come to life that I never really thought would. And that was an incredible experience and for a lot of reasons, I ended up going to Colorado and it was tough for me in California to find community and to be able to make it work financially. It’s quite expensive, so…
(laughs)
I lived it, and I’m glad that I did and maybe someday, I’ll go back and I’m so grateful for the experience that I had there, and now I’m really happy to be surrounded by these awesome mountains and I can river surf, if I want to.
(laughs)
(sound of waves crashing)
I actually got to climb in Rocky Mountain National Park with one of my closest friends. We did the Casual Route, climbing some awesome alpine routes and, you know, there’s just something that’s so special about doing that kinda thing. It feels like such a wild environment to be in. And, for both of us—we’re both trans—and I really enjoy climbing with other queer and trans climbers. It’s such a wonderful opportunity to collaborate in this creative way and to trust each other.
You know, I think in this society that’s constantly telling queer and especially trans people that they don’t know themselves—that they can’t be trusted. It’s a very powerful experience to rely upon each other and be in this kinda wild place, doing something that’s kinda difficult—requires a lot of competency and sound judgment and decision-making. And it’s amazing to be there together and it feels like, “Yes, we can. Yes, we can do this. We can trust each other, we can rely on each other.” And I think that’s something that is absolutely quintessentially a part of the trans experience—is learning that we have to rely on our communities.
(pauses)
But on the subject of kind of moving out west, when I initially left for the trip, I told my employer, “Well, can I go on this couple month trip here? I really need to get out.” And Maura Kistler and Kenny Parker at Waterstone where I worked, were like, “Absolutely! You need to travel west. You’re gonna love it. You absolutely need to do this. You just let us know when you’re coming home.”
And so, when I left, I thought, “Ok, I’m just gonna go try this for a couple months and then, I’m gonna come right back,” you know? And I think, two weeks in or less, I was like, “I don’t know if I can come back. I’ve gotta do this thing.”
Because there was such a point for me where I didn’t know if I would be ok. I didn’t know if I was gonna be able to find a job. I didn’t know if I was gonna be lonely. I didn’t know if I was gonna be safe. I had never traveled across the country! I had hardly been anywhere, you know? I had never driven across the country in a van—for sure! And the whole thing was quite intimidating. And I had never—actually, since I was maybe seventeen—been without a job. And so, that space of not having employment, not having a house, and just going with the flow was totally new to me.
But once I got in it and I realized, “Wow! This is so freeing! There’s so much joy and exploration and learning new things and seeing what the rest of the country is like. And, you know, growing up in kind of a small place, I didn’t really know that it wasn’t totally kinda normal to have confederate flags everywhere and—
(pauses)
—it was a totally different culture going out to different places and seeing how other people, how other cultures exist in different states, and it was really refreshing. But there was a certain low-level anxiety at all times for me, especially in southern West Virginia that—
(pauses)
—I don’t know if other people think about this. And I think that there’s a lot of people right now that might start nodding their heads at this feeling, but I had to think about where I’d park when I went to the crag. Am I gonna get blocked in? Who’s following me? My friends that were trans and queer that lived on the campground where I lived—yeah, I made sure they were coming home at night. I was texting them if they weren’t there when I thought they would be home.
Going climbing—there were certain areas that I didn’t really like to go to because there’s no cell phone service. It’s a one-way, kind of in-and-out road. It’s fairly easy to block people in. I don’t know how much other people think about that, but it comes to the point where it’s kind of an unconscious thing that’s just in the back of your mind, playing at all times: What’s my way out of here? What kind of weapons do I have at my disposal right now? What happens if this person does this? There’s all these things that are running in the back of your mind and that didn’t disappear, you know, on the road—for sure. But I think there’s places that I’ve been that it’s been a little less loud.
And I’ve met so many wonderful people. Climbing has provided this opportunity for connection and it’s something that I didn’t get with surfing. It was a very isolated experience. You know, exploring in these wild places and relying upon each other—it’s an incredibly gift. There’s no grade, there’s no peak, there’s no amount of miles that I could run or travel or do anything that would compare to the value of the people and connections that I’ve made. But I think the climbing community has been, at times—the greater climbing community—has been, at times, a source of disappointment and stress and anger—
(pauses)
—for me. I feel very passionate about this activity and this sport and the whole experience of it, and I want to feel connection with those that also share it. And a lot of times, I feel as though when people say things like, “You know the outdoors doesn’t care if you’re gay or if you’re trans or if you’re Black or Indigenous or a person of color,” — but whatever. You know the arguments.
And that’s just totally not true because the people that are in the outdoors do care—the people that surround you. Like I was saying earlier, you’re not just going climbing. You’re not just on the wall. You’re in the towns that are by the crags. You’re on the road to get there. You’re not just in this vacuum, and it’s not always safe. It’s not always the same experience for everyone. I think people are experiencing the outdoors in vastly different ways, depending on your identities.
So, there’s been some frustration on my behalf with how some climbers have handled a lot of the discussions that have been going on about race and gender and sexuality and climbing—and the greater culture of climbing, in general. And I hope that people take away that climbing doesn’t happen in a vacuum and no one can escape or totally get rid of the fact that we’ve been raised in a racist, heteropatriarchal society.
We all have these learned stereotypes and learned alignments that we have to push back on. And that’s the main thing—is being aware of it, pushing back on it, and taking action. And I think if you’re totally denying the fact that racism or sexism or transphobia, or a number of other things—ableism—exist within the climbing community, it’s absolutely never gonna change. You cannot deny that. We gotta recognize it, we gotta move forward.
You know, climbing’s a difficult sport. Most people really like the struggle of it. Let me tell you, I love a good moderate multi-pitch. That’s a great time, you know? Just a fun romp. But even the fun days are hard days. And, you know, we’ve got a tremendous opportunity here to try hard—to learn, to work, to grow. So, I hope that people take away that we got more to learn, we have more room to grow, and I think a great way to do that is connecting with people and doing it through this shared passion that we have for this sport.
(KK): We’re gonna take a short break—so don’t go anywhere. Or…we’re a podcast. You can take us everywhere.
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(LR): I was flying home and I was at the airport—we had a layover and a delay and the whole nine yards. And I started talking to this guy at the bar and he was a cishet guy—cisgender, heterosexual guy. Very athletic. He was into surfing, so we started talking about that. And it just came up—I can’t remember how it came up. But it came up that I was trans [while we were] talking about climbing and athletics and surfing all these kinds of things. And he said, “Well, what can I do to support you?” And I thought that was such a nice question.
And I said, “You know, you have a ton of power that I don’t have in situations,” because if someone says something transphobic around me, and there’s been so many times where I’ve been the only one to speak up. And, of course, I’m the queer guy. I’m the trans guy. I’m the only one who’s gonna say something when these queerphobic and transphobic statements are made, behaviors are made. And it just feels like, “Man, you know. I know y’all know this isn’t right. I know you can feel it—that what this person is doing isn’t right.” But there’s silence.
And the other part of that is when I call somebody out, of course, they’re gonna look at me and automatically, a lot of times, just totally disregard whatever I’m saying. It was kind of a rude awakening in experiences I had where when I was first medical transitioning and I was kinda being somewhat a part of the men’s groups, you know. And I’d been involved in a way that I wasn’t before when I was being perceived as a woman. I got to see what men-only circles are like. And I was the one that was like, “Hey, man. You can’t say that.”
And they’re like,
(scoffs)
“Well, you’re not a man, so whatever.”
And I was like, “Ok, well. They’re not gonna take whatever I say seriously.” So, as a cisgender heterosexual dude who is respected by a lot of the guys, especially that are saying these kinds of things and doing these kinds of things and writing the comments on the Instagram and the Facebook or whatever you use, and creating unsafe environments, you know, it’s gonna be more powerful to come from somebody that they are respecting, in their mind, than it is from me—unfortunately. And that’s just the way it is. And that’s fine, but I think that [for people that wanna be allies], you got a tremendous amount of power.
And it’s really nice when we don’t always have to be defending ourselves. You know, we don’t always have the be the ones that are raising our voices saying, “Hey, you can’t do this.” It’s really nice when other people step up to the plate and say, “Hey! Not acceptable. You can’t do that.”
So, what I’d like to see more of is cisgender people and heterosexual people taking a stand, raising their voice. And it doesn’t have to be in an aggressive way, but just a kind way of calling out and letting people know this is inappropriate. There’s not a perfect way to always approach it. I think a lot of people are scared, a lot of people are intimidated to say anything and it can be awkward—but it’s better to say something than to be silent. And I think that can create a lot better spaces for everyone involved, and not always put the responsibility of making the community a better place on the people that are most harmed by it!
So, you can educate, too. And I think that goes for race, as well. I think, as a white person, I have a responsibility to call out other white people that are saying our doing racist things and educate them because it shouldn’t always be the responsibility of the people that are being harmed to try to educate and correct the people that are doing the harm. It doesn’t need to happen like that.
(HANDSOME AND GRETYL):
Lay it all down you can’t hold it all alone
You can’t hold it all alone my friend
Lay it all down you can’t hold it all alone
You can’t hold it all alone my friend
(LR): So, I’d like to see more people taking real action—talking to their friends, talking to their acquaintances, their co-workers, and not always putting it on us to do that. You never know who around you is trans or queer. And so, you might think you might be in a group of all-cis-het people and somebody makes a crack: “Oh, well. You know, no one’s trans here, so…”
(trails off)
(inhales)
Here’s the thing. You don’t know, and you also don’t know who’s struggling with identity and who might really be having a hard time in questioning their own identity and their sexuality. And when you hear things that are violent and negative and making a joke about something that’s really deep-rooted inside of you that you’re not ready to share with people—that can have catastrophic consequences for people. So, I think it’s very important to use your voice and you can approach people with kindness—you know, we all have to be pulled aside sometimes. Say, “Hey, man. This is not great—what you just said, and this is why.”
I hope that my friends do that. I hope that my acquaintances do that for me, ‘cause I’m sure that I’ve needed it sometimes and I probably will need it in the future! You know, nobody’s perfect and nobody knows everything, and that’s why we gotta help each other out. We gotta be in community, and sometimes being in a community and supporting each other is more than just positive affirmation. Sometimes, it’s pulling each other aside and saying, “Hey, you know, you gotta change this.” And I’m thankful if somebody takes the time to do that for me.
So, there’s a lot of actions and it doesn’t have to end in losing a friendship or losing a relationship. You know, hopefully, it can be a conversation that helps someone grow. Because if you take the time to repair that situation, that’s great. I mean, we’re all gonna do harm in one way or another, quite likely, to each other. But you gotta be willing to repair the damage.
And I think it’s often a really powerful experience to be on the side of, “Hey, someone told me that I need to learn about this,” and you do and you make the change, ‘cause guess what? Now, you’re better able to take that experience and teach other people and take something positive away from it. So, I don’t think that ignorance is an excuse to do harm. I just think that, you know, harm is a reality of being a human being and I think we need to focus on what we do to help stop perpetuating it, and to help others learn and prevent it from happening further.
But, like I was saying earlier, just because someone hasn’t had the exposure and doesn’t necessarily have the education and the knowledge, I don’t think that automatically makes them not worth interacting with. I think that people in the South get kind of a bad rap about not being very open and progressive and things like that. And, you know, there’s violence everywhere, but I think there’s a lot of people that, given the opportunity to have a conversation and learn about an experience of life that they didn’t previously know about, actually are tremendously warm and welcoming. And so, the more comfortable I got with myself and in myself and in my identity, the more likely I am to have conversations with those people. And there are some really nice outcomes from that.
Because we’re all gonna know someone who’s trans, whether that person’s in your family or one of your best friends or at your work. There’s trans people everywhere, and they’re in West Virginia. They’re in the South. They’re in California. They’re everywhere. So, I think it’s worth having these conversations and I would say, just don’t write anybody off, you know, just because they don’t have all the information at hand. And that’s where allies can play a great role—is to take some of those people that need a trans 101. And I think that a lot of people are totally willing and capable, given the opportunity. And so, I hope, that through these kind of small conversations, we can—it can make a difference.
Back to my feelings on leaving West Virginia and kind of what took me so long, so to speak. A lotta people told me, “You gotta get out of here. You gotta go to the city. You need to experience some different things.” And as much as I think that’s right for some people, I don’t think it’s right for everybody and I think there are wonderful ways to exist in rural places and be queer and be trans and have community. That all exists for a lot of people—and I just simply think that I needed to try something different, that’s all.
But doing these sports where I’m learning new things—learning how to surf, learning trail running, and coming out west—you know, the mountains are kinda different. It’s a little different experience with the hiking, even! And doing off the formalized trails, you know, backcountry running and things like that—there’s a lot of self-confidence that’s required. Same thing in the ocean and same thing with rock climbing, especially alpine climbing—you’re just kinda venturing out there.
And that is kind of directly related to how I feel in the rest of life—I know that I can believe in myself and I can go do these things and learn new things. And in the mountains, I’ve been loving trail running and scrambling and doing some class three, class four stuff. Because once you get off the formalized trail, you’re like, “Wow, I’m really out here.” And there’s not a clear path and you kinda have a general guideline of where you’re going, but you gotta figure it out. And sometimes, I get stressed out.
The last one that I did, I was pretty sure I was going the right direction, but I kinda got to a point where it wasn’t that obvious any more and I was gonna have to do a little bushwhacking, I thought. There was a cliff and I thought maybe I could find a break in the cliff and scramble up, but I wasn’t a hundred percent sure. And I was about to start crying—just break down. I was like, “Ok, well. You know, I can do that. It’s fine. But maybe I’ll just have a cookie first and see how I feel then.” You know?
(laughs)
So, I ate my snack and I felt a little better and I went for it. And I found the break in the cliff line and went and did the thing, and I come out onto these slabs—these gentle slabs—and I see the most perfect little cairn sitting there. And I was like, “Oh!” I just started laughing out loud. I was so happy ‘cause I thought, “I am on the right path! I did it!” You know? And that’s such a beautiful moment. And in life, I think that oftentimes, we are the cairns for each other. I think we show each other that we’re not lost. We’re not alone. And that there’s a future in the direction that we’re going.
(inhales)
I think for a lot of trans people especially, futures can be a tough thing to imagine. [When you grow up and you don’t see a lot of people] that are living the life that you’re trying to imagine, and you’re just trying to get through the day, I think it’s very difficult to dream. And I think through being seen, through simply letting other people know that we exist and that we have joy, I think that we give each other the gift of the future.
One of my really close friends, Nikki Smith, did a podcast earlier and she’s a professional climber and photographer. Been in the climbing industry in different roles for a long time and she’s trans. And she was being interviewed and she was asked, “What would you tell yourself if you could go back in time and give yourself advice?”
And she said, “Well, I think I’d just show myself the future.” And essentially, she said that she would show herself how much she loves herself now. That’s exactly what I’d do for myself, but of course, we can’t go back and give that to ourselves. But I do believe that we can give that to each other. And you just never know who might need to see you—in order to see a future for themselves.
(KK): You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. A huge thank you to Deuter, one of the leading backpack brands that will help you hit the trails with confidence and comfort. A big shout out to Allez Outdoor for supporting the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. And to Ocún—innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance. And thanks to Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia is in business to save our home planet.
Support companies who support this podcast—we couldn’t do it without them. If you liked what you heard, you can leave a review on iTunes or give us a like—like all good things, you can find us on the internet.
(KK): What’s wrong with blue eyes?
(LR): I don’t know! Maybe like, the one—like, it’s usually like one’s really blue—
(KK): Ohhh. Yeah.
(LR): —and then, one’s like, kinda brown or whatever. She was like,
*with a southern drawl*
—“Those eyes remind me too much of the devil.”
**Producer’s note: At the time of this interview, the guest’s most updated recollection of this person’s pronouns was “he & him”. We would like to acknowledge that this person’s pronouns are currently “they & them”.
Additional Resources, and Credible Organizations and Web Sites:
Support Hotlines
National Suicide Prevention Hotline
24/7 hotline, staffed by trained individuals, for those in suicidal crisis or emotional distress
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Crisis hotline: 800-273-TALK (8255); 888-628-9454 (en español)
Crisis Text Line
Free, 24/7 support for people in crisis
https://www.crisistextline.org/
Text 741741 from anywhere in the USA to text with a trained Crisis Counselor
The Trevor Project
Crisis intervention and mental health services for those ages 13-24
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/
Crisis hotline: 866-488-7386 (for those ages 13-24)
Communities Against Hate
National coalition documenting hate incidents
Report an incident at: http://communitiesagainsthate.org/report
Report and get help at: 1-844-9-NO-HATE
Health Care, Insurance and Additional Mental Health Resources
National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI)
National network of mental health care providers, as well as a provider database
http://www.nami.org/Find-Support/LGBTQ
Help Line 800-950-6264
National Council for Behavioral Health
National network of community behavioral health centers, as well as a provider database
http://www.thenationalcouncil.org/
Psychology Today Therapist Finder
A list of therapists around North America. Once a city or state is selected, there is a filter for therapists working with transgender clients under the ‘Issue’ area on the left
https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/
RAD Remedy
Community-sourced list of trans-affirming healthcare providers
Out2Enroll
Resources to help transgender people select and enroll in insurance
TransHealth
Health and guidance for healthcare providers, as well as a list of transaffirming health clinics in Canada, the United States, and England.
Transcend Legal
Transcend Legal helps people get transgender-related health care covered under insurance.
TransChance Health
Helps transgender people navigate health care and insurance to receive respectful, high-quality care, and get transition-related care covered
https://www.transchancehealth.org/
JustUs Health
Leads the work to achieve health equity for diverse gender, sexual, and cultural communities in Minnesota, including the Trans Aging Project and a Trans Health Insurance guide
Point of Pride Annual Transgender Surgery Fund
Provides direct financial assistance to trans folks who cannot afford their gender-affirming surgery
https://pointofpride.org/annual-transgender-surgery-fund/
Community Kinship Life Surgery Scholarship
Provides the trans community with assistance while having a sense of community and kinship
http://cklife.org/scholarship/
Transformative Freedom Fund (Colorado)
Supports the authentic selves of transgender Coloradans by removing financial barriers to transition-related healthcare
https://transformativefreedomfund.org/
Kentucky Health Justice Network Trans Health Advocacy
Works to help Trans Kentuckians access the healthcare they need, as well as reaffirm our autonomy and community
http://www.kentuckyhealthjusticenetwork.org/trans-health.html
Legal Resources
ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union)
National civil rights organization with offices across the United States
https://www.aclu.org/about/affiliates?redirect=affiliates
GLAD (GLBTQ Legal Advocates & Defenders)
Legal advocacy for the LGBTQ community
http://www.glad.org/
Lambda Legal
Advocacy and legal support for the LGBTQ community
http://www.lambdalegal.org/
Legal Services Corporation
A nonprofit that provides a directory of civil legal aid for lowincome Americans.
http://www.lsc.gov/whatlegalaid/findlegalaid
NCLR (National Center for Lesbian Rights)
Advocacy and legal support for the LGBT community
http://www.nclrights.org/
Sylvia Rivera Law Project
Legal support and resources for people who are transgender, intersex, or gender nonconforming
http://srlp.org/
Transgender Law Center
Advocacy and legal support for the transgender community
http://transgenderlawcenter.org/
TLDEF (Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund)
Advocacy and legal support for the transgender community
http://tldef.org/
Transcend Legal
Transcend Legal helps people get transgender-related health care covered under insurance.
https://transcendlegal.org/
Transgender Legal Services Network (National Center for Transgender Equality)
Over 60 organizations across the country serving trans communities belong to the Network
http://www.transequality.org/iddocumentscenter/transgenderlegalservicesnetwork
For legal assistance with the name and gender change process on identity documents in your state, please visit NCTE's Identity Documents Center.
Incarceration Resources
Black and Pink
Black & Pink is an open family of LGBTQ prisoners and ‘free world’ allies who support each other.
http://www.blackandpink.org/resources-2/national-prisoner-resource-list/
Immigration, Refugee, Asylum, and International Resources
Transgender Law Center's Trans Immigrant Defense Effort (TIDE)
Provide TGNC immigrants with legal information and connect them to pro bono attorneys and legal service providers
https://transgenderlawcenter.org/programs/tide
National Immigrant Justice Center’s LGBTQ Immigrant Rights Initiative
Provides legal services to low-income immigrants who identify as LGBT and those who are living with HIV.
http://www.immigrantjustice.org/index.php/services/lgbtq-immigrants
Immigration Equality
The nation’s leading LGBTQ immigrant rights organization
http://www.immigrationequality.org/
Human Rights First
Help for people who have fled dangerous situations in their home countries to obtain asylum in the United States.
https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/asylum
Dignity for All: LGBTI Assistance Program
International emergency assistance requests
https://freedomhouse.org/program/dignity-all-lgbti-assistance-program
Arab Foundation For Freedoms And Equality
Emergency response in the Middle East and North Africa
http://afemena.org/contact-us/
GATE
Works internationally on gender identity, gender expression, and bodily issues
https://transactivists.org/about/contact/
Domestic Violence/Abuse Resources
DomesticShelters.org
DomesticShelters.org is a resource list of domestic abuse shelters around the United States.
https://www.domesticshelters.org/
National Coalition of AntiViolence Programs (NCAVP)
National network of service organizations working with LGBTQ people who have been victims of domestic violence
FORGE
FORGE is a national transgender anti-violence organization
http://forge-forward.org/anti-violence/
The NW Network
Organization specializing in providing resources for LGBTQ victims of domestic violence, they have an extensive “resource clearinghouse”
Nutrition and Housing Resources
Feeding America
National Database of Food Banks
http://www.feedingamerica.org/
ShelterListings.org
National database of homeless shelters
http://www.shelterlistings.org/
Employment Services/Advice
Many of the organizations listed under Legal Resources also provide employment discrimination resources and support
Trans Employment Program
San Francisco based employment organization with national resources and connections
http://transemploymentprogram.org/
U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
Enforces federal protections for LGBT Workers
https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/enforcement_protections_lgbt_workers.cfm
Workplace Fairness
Workplace Fairness has a list of guidelines and information for transgender people in the workplace
https://www.workplacefairness.org/genderidentitydiscrimination
Support and Advocacy Resources
CenterLink
A directory of LGBT Community Centers
http://www.lgbtcenters.org/Centers/findacenter.aspx
Department of Justice
List of state and local human rights agencies
https://www.justice.gov/crt/combatingpost911discriminatorybacklash7
Equality Federation
Directory of state-based organizations advocating for LGBTQ people
http://www.equalityfederation.org/members/
TransParent
For parents of trans youth seeking support
http://transparentusa.org/
Veteran Resources
OutServe-SLDN
Legal services, watchdog and policiy organization dedicated to bringing about full LGBTQ equality to America's military and veteran communities.
https://www.outserve-sldn.org
SPARTA
Advocacy organization and supporter network for actively serving transgender military members, veterans, and their families.
https://spartapride.org
TAVA: Transgender American Service Veterans
Advocacy organization that works to ensure transgender veterans receive appropriate care and support.
http://transveteran.org