Episode 43: Becoming Katie
If you Google “Katie Brown” on the internet, there’s a Reddit thread called “What Ever Happened to Katie Brown?” and that’s a valid question. Katie wasn’t just a professional climber at the age of thirteen—she didn’t just win the X Games at fourteen or onsight the northwest face of Half Dome or snag the first female free ascent of the Leaning Tower with Lynn Hill.
She wrote a book! She wrote two books, in fact. She became a mom. She started healing her old wounds from childhood and left behind a dysfunctional religion and toxic relationships that consumed her childhood and adolescent years. She bartended, made some jewelry, and reclaimed her past in order to tell her story.
Here it is.
For the Love of Climbing is presented by Patagonia. Additional support is from deuter USA, Gnarly Nutrition, Allez Outdoor, Ocún, and the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance (SUWA).
Music is by Chad Crouch. Additional music is licensed by Music Bed.
Cover photo by Kika MacFarlane.
Catch up on podcast (pod-Kath?) updates and general life things: @inheadlights
This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Because therapy is for everyone.
FLC is public media which means we’re supported by listeners like you. Donate or become a patron.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
(KATHY KARLO): This podcast is presented by Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia’s in business to save our home planet.
- This podcast is sponsored by deuter, one of the leading backpack brands that will help you hit the trails with confidence and comfort, but most importantly–your snacks.
deuter has a history of first ascents and alpine roots. Their head of product development even climbed Everest once, in jeans (hashtag not fake news.) deuter is known for fit, comfort, and ventilation. Founded in 1898, deuter believes in good fitting backpacks, so you can focus on way cooler things like puppies, pocket bacon, and gettin’ sendy, whether at the crag or in the alpine.
(FEMALE VOICE): Today we’re going to talk about “allez”. “Allez” means “come on!” in a way, or to encourage. Ok! We are done with the simple and normal uses of “allez”, now let’s cut to the chase:
(KATHY KARLO): Allez Outdoor Personal Care products are made by climbers for those who love the outdoors. Their rich and repairing ingredients for their skincare collection are inspired by desert landscapes, and their simple and recyclable packaging makes them eco-sustainable. Allez commits to protecting the open spaces that we love by partnering with the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. That’s Allez Outdoor: “A-L-L-E-Z”). Allez Outdoor—made by climbers, for those who love the outdoors.
- This podcast gets support from Gnarly Nutrition, one of the leading protein supplements that tastes “whey” better than they need to, because they use quality natural ingredients. So, whether you’re a working mom who runs circles around your kids on weekends or an unprofessional climber trying to send that 5.13 in the gym, Gnarly Nutrition has all of your recovery needs.
The only question you need to ask yourself is: Are you a sucker for anything that tastes like chocolate ice cream? (Yeah, me neither.) Gnarly Nutrition is designed to enhance your progress—and taste like a milkshake, without all the crap.
(MALE VOICE): Ocún?
(bell dinging)
(FEMALE VOICE): No.
(MALE VOICE #2): Ocún?
(MALE VOICE #3): Nope.
(MALE VOICE #4): Ocún?
(MALE VOICE #3): Really?
(FEMALE VOICE #2): Ocún?
(NON-GENDERED VOICE): No!
(KK): Who is Ocún? More than prolific crack climbing gloves, Ocún has been making innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance since 1998. Their climbing shoe designs are all original, developed and manufactured in Czech Republic and one hundred percent gender neutral. Beyond their sticky rubber, Ocún is renowned for their hardware, harnesses, and the biggest lightest crash pad on the market. Find your new favorite climbing shoes and accessories at Backcountry, Moosejaw, Camp Saver, and Amazon.
- This podcast is sponsored by the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance. Because you listen to this show, we know that responsible recreation is important to all of you.
Increasing visitation and rapid expansion of human-powered recreation has adverse impact to the delicate desert ecosystem. What climbers and other recreationists need are more thoughtful land management plans, which can help minimize the impact of camping and recreating in fragile desert environments.
Help protect the places you love to climb by asking the Bureau of Land Management to better manage recreation. Visit suwa.org/recreation (that’s S-U-W-A) or text UTAH R-E-C to 52886 to get started and protect wild Utah.
(KATIE BROWN): I think social media is the hardest part of all of that. It’s just like, putting yourself out there again—‘cause social media is crazy, as we all know, and everyone has an opinion! And so, then it’s like, if I post this, what’s it gonna mean? And if I don’t post that, what’s it gonna mean? And if I don’t say anything, what’s it gonna mean?
And I think everyone, especially this year, is dealing with that with regard to social media. And every other day, I’m like, “I’m just gonna shut the whole thing down!”
(laughs)
I don’t know! It’s really weird. I’ve been told when I was younger that I was really negative or whatever and so, sometimes I worry that it’s too negative and I need to be more positive and be more shiny.
But I think I’ve learned from a few posts to just not post because somebody said that you should be posting once every week. You know what I mean? And that way, it’s a little more real.
(KK): If you Google “Katie Brown” on the internet, there’s a Reddit thread called “What Ever Happened to Katie Brown?” and it’s a valid question. Katie wasn’t just a professional climber at the age of thirteen—she didn’t just win the X Games at fourteen or onsight the northwest face of Half Dome, or snag the first female free ascent of the Leaning Tower with Lynn Hill.
She wrote a book! She wrote two books, in fact. She became a mom. She left behind a dysfunctional religion and toxic relationships that consumed her childhood and adolescent years. She bartended, made some jewelry, and reclaimed her past in order to tell her story—and she climbed a few rocks in between.
You could call Katie’s life a shiny one at a glance—but it was the not-so-shiny part that helped her become the woman she is today.
(KB): It’s interesting: when you become a parent, I feel like you can really kind of disseminate—if that’s the right word—what you appreciate about your childhood and what you don’t. ‘Cause, you see it in this mirror, you know? In a different way.
And so, as a parent, the main thing that I feel like I’ve appreciated from my own childhood was that we did learn a lot of skills, and so, I feel like as an adult, I know how to do a lot of things.
And performance was always a big deal in our family, and so, I had a wide range of sports and school and music. And that I’m grateful for, and if nothing else, we were taught—my brother and I were both taught a strong work ethic. So, I feel like we both have the ability to get the stuff that isn’t fun—done.
(KK): Family stuff is complicated. We don’t get to choose them, and they can either be the best or the most challenging parts of our lives. Sometimes, they’re both.
(KB): I didn’t talk to my mom for a long time—not because we had a big falling out. It was more just like, I got to an age—I think I was around twenty-five—and just kind of realized that the relationship wasn’t working or gonna change. And so, it was more just like—for me it felt almost like an act of self-preservation—and I have talked to her a couple times in the last couple years.
(inhales)
And with my dad, I would say we have a “social” relationship.
(laughs)
I don’t know if that makes sense, but my family doesn’t talk about things. So, when I see my dad, it’s more like, you just kinda stay on the surface. But I have a good relationship with my brother.
We weren’t that close growing up—I think when you grow up in a home like ours, it doesn’t foster closeness between family members, but he’s always been there for me. And it was funny, at one point, I called him and was like, “I just feel like I need to apologize ‘cause I feel like when I started climbing, all the attention was on me and you got forgotten and left in the dust.”
And he was like, “That’s so funny that you say that! ‘Cause I feel like I need to apologize because I feel like I escaped and you got fed to the wolves.”
(laughs)
And so, we both had these differing views on what happened, but we both felt equally culpable, I guess, for the other one’s pain. And so, it was interesting to hear that. And then, honestly, since working on the book project, I feel like we’ve gotten closer because we’ve talked more about things that weren’t talked about before.
(KK): Katie’s book, “Unraveled: A Climber’s Journey Through Darkness and Back” was published on October 6th, 2022. For more information, visit mountaineers.org.
(ALEX HONNOLD) (to himself): Ok, I’m Alex Honnold. You’re listening to the love of climbing podcast. It’s a funny, sad, somewhat uncomfortable podcast—
(louder)
I was like, “Wow, this is the opposite of my podcast. But, you know, here we go!”
(laughs)
(upbeat music)
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing—”
—is it “to the”? Or “to—“ Do you say “to For the Love of Climbing Podcast”?
“I’m Alex Honnold and you’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast.”
Yeah. Yeah, I see it.
“You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. This is not a climbing podcast. Well, sorta. It’s a funny, sad, and somewhat uncomfortable podcast about choosing vulnerability. Here’s the show.”
Easy cheesy!
(KK): Hey, a quick heads up. This episode discusses disordered eating as well as discussion about religion. Take care of yourselves while listening and find more resources online at fortheloveofclimbing.com.
(KB): So my name’s Katie. I was born in Parker, Colorado but started climbing in the Red. I am a mom. Currently, I mostly work as a hair and makeup artist, which is funny because I have tried a million different things, for better or worse. My personality, I guess. It’s because I’m a Sagittarius. I’m always wanting to try something new!
(laughs)
So, when I quit climbing, I did a lotta different things. I worked in a coffee shop and I bartended and—wow, I was the worst bartender ever, ‘cause I’m pretty introverted. It was pretty bad.
Um, and I made jewelry for a while—I worked for a jeweler. And then, I got pregnant and didn’t want to metalsmith while I was pregnant. So, after Tayla was born, I started kinda thinking about what I wanted to be when I was a grown-up.
And I don’t even know how I started—I remember walking down the makeup aisle in Target and being so overwhelmed and thinking, “I have no idea what all of this stuff is for or how you use it,” or anything—it was just so overwhelming. But I started watching YouTube videos and playing with it, and for some reason, it was just super fun and felt like art.
So, I would put Tayla to bed and then, stay up half the night playing with makeup and started thinking about what it would be if I could do that for a job. So, I ended up going to Aveda in Denver and started doing weddings.
Sometimes, I feel a little like an odd duck, ‘cause I come from such a different world than most people in the beauty industry.
(laughs)
(KK): There’s an interesting query about whether or not athletes need a second career or not. Even top-tier Olympic athletes hold full-time jobs that have no relation or side benefit to their sport. When you’re at the pinnacle of your athletic career, it’s hard to imagine allocating time away from training or climbing.
But if cats have nine lives, then most professional athletes have two. Because when climbing isn’t your full-time “thing” anymore, it’s not a bad thing to have something to lean on for financial stability. And, of course, all athletic careers come with an expiration date—at least, in terms of what the human body is physically capable of.
But Katie had a unique trajectory. She didn’t necessarily seek to become a sponsored athlete. Armed with a quiet acuity, I sometimes can’t even tell if she’s joking or not when she calls herself a “former professional climber”.
(KB): I sort of quit like, a hundred times but—
(laughs)
—by the time I really, truly left the sport, I was pregnant. So, I was thirty.
When we lived in Colorado still, my mom was always very big into being athletic—and specifically, adventure sports. Not so much team sports, but skiing and all that kinda stuff. And she got really into doing 14ers. And so, every summer, we would do 14ers—which I hated, and eventually, I think she got sick enough of me crying all the way up—
(laughs)
—because by the time I was twelve, I remember I didn’t have to do them anymore. But anyway, some of the 14ers required technical rock climbing, and she and my brother, actually, started learning about climbing. And he went to a school in Denver that was across the street from a climbing gym called “Thrill Seekers”.
And so, he and his friends would go there after school and then, sometimes they would go to Castle Canyon. And I went a few times—I was so small, I had to wear the full body harness still, even though I was twelve.
But I never really got that into it, and I went once with them to Castle Canyon and got a tick on me and swore that I was never going rock climbing ever again, ‘cause it was the grossest thing ever to me, at the time.
(laughs)
And then, when we moved to Kentucky, my mom started trying to find climbing and stuff for her and my brother. So, they found out about Climb Time in Lexington and the Red, and I just remember them coming home and talking about how fun it was and how amazing and I have a long history of FOMO, so—
(laughs)
—so, I remember just being like, “Well, I wanna do that, too, then if it’s so much fun—and I’m scared of bugs, but I guess I’m gonna go anyway” ‘cause it just sounded like fun, and when you first move somewhere, you don’t know anyone.
I started going with them and, to be perfectly honest, I don’t know what exactly hooked me that time that didn’t when we were in Colorado, but whether it was the style of climbing in the Red or just because maybe I had nothing else going on—I don’t know, really, what it was, but it just made sense to me.
(KK): And Katie was hooked. For years, her life was climbing and competing, and she quickly became recognized as one of the world’s best sport climbers, winning both the X Games and Arco Rock Master in 1996, as well as the World Cup in France in 1999.
Katie was no longer the “invisible underdog”, as she referred to herself in “Unraveled”. And at that same time life was happening all around her, things simultaneously started falling apart.
You could point the finger of blame at so many factors—and there were a lot. The pressure to perform, the isolation she experienced as an adolescent, the emotionally tumultuous relationship she shared with her mother.
But ultimately, all of these things welded together concocted the perfect recipe for Katie’s life to ravel out uncontrollably—and she almost had to let it happen it in order to make repairs.
(KB): I mean, off the record, I was initially nervous. Which is kinda why in the interview with Kalous, I was a little bit vague—I think, or hopefully.
(chuckles)
But I was initially really nervous about saying anything specific about my mom because I was afraid she would hear it before the book came out. But yeah, let’s just go for it and see.
Ok, this is gonna be hard.
(laughs)
Ok, so I’m not entirely sure—
(pauses briefly)
—I don’t know that I’ll ever really know where her motivations came from. In the past, a lot of people kind of assumed that she was that typical, overbearing soccer mom, but the relationship was a lot more complicated. And so, I’ve had a hard time over the years figuring out how to explain to another person what it was exactly all about.
But if I’m being a hundred percent honest, for me, it felt like the things that I accomplished—I accomplished, not because of her, but in spite of her?
And I guess I always felt as a kid that she didn’t like me that much until it turned out that I was good at climbing. And then, she was obsessed with me, until it got to the point where she got jealous. And then, she didn’t like me again.
You know, your kids inevitably get older and want to separate and create their own identity. And then, at that point, it became a jealousy—almost like, competitive—feeling between us.
Religion was a huge, huge part of our childhood. I mean, it was Christianity, but it was almost like my mom’s version of Christianity, and the rules often changed based on how it served her or who she was hanging out with.
And so, you’re always guessing, trying to figure out what the rule was, or what the rule was that you might annoyingly be breaking. And I think it was very easy to turn god into this vengeful character where you’re constantly afraid that you’re gonna be punished if you get something wrong.
So, there was a lot of fear and a lot of rules. I kept journals religiously all through my teen years. And my journals, to me, now, sound like a crazy person—‘cause it’s just constantly being like, “What is god’s will?” And I would become debilitated and not able to make decisions because I would just be so paranoid!
Like, trying to figure out—what is god’s will? And wanting something like, “Oh, I have this opportunity to go on this trip. But I probably won’t be able to because Mom won’t be able to go. And so, then I won’t be allowed to go if she can’t go with me.
And I need to let that go and it’s god’s will, and I need to be more giving and less selfish. And if it doesn’t work out, it must be god’s will, and I need to be ok with that.” And just on and on and on and on, until every little thing is this huge decision that you can’t make because ultimately, you will never know what “god’s will” is.
And in my twenties, I used to joke that my intuition was broken because after so long of that, you have no idea what you personally might want or need because you’ve spent your whole life trying to figure out what god and what Mom might want. And so, it was this twisted idea of Christianity that I think was not real—
(pauses)
—at all.
And I remember meeting my sister-in-law for the first time, whose dad is a pastor of this huge Presbyterian church in Tennessee. And she was talking about—I was twenty. And she was talking about listening to some music when she was a teenager, and I was like—my mind was just blown. ‘Cause I was like, “Wait, what? Your—
—your dad’s a pastor and you’re a Christian, and you were allowed to listen to secular music?”
I was just like, “Wait!—
(laughs)
—how is that even possible? Like, it doesn’t compute!”
‘Cause at that time, I didn’t know it at the time, but my experience was very abnormal. I just didn’t know it. I had been so isolated through my teen years, it was literally almost always just me and my mom, and so, I had no other barometer to go off of of what was normal.
To me, Christianity was: You can’t go to school dances. You can’t listen to secular music. You can’t watch TV. You can’t wear makeup, you can’t shave your legs, you can’t—it was just a whole list of things, and then, learning that maybe it wasn’t that way for other people was—
(pauses)
—mind-blowing.
(KK): This wasn’t Katie’s whole world—she still had climbing. But this was the foundation of her reality, and like a slow, toxic leak, it spread into all other arenas of her life. Invisible but dangerous, and didn’t become apparent until it had already done its damage. By the ninth grade, Katie had missed three months of school because she had been competing in Europe.
(KB): But then, we moved to Georgia, right about at the same time. And I would say that phase in Georgia was probably the darkest phase for me. I didn’t really have friends in school anymore, because I was pretty deep into anorexia at that time, so I didn’t really have friends in school anymore, anyway.
But, I also lost the school outlet and the gym outlet and the Red, and then, my brother moved away at that time. When I say isolation, that was when the real isolation kind of set in, because my mom was very controlling about who I climbed with and what I did, and where I went.
So, when you’re in a phase of your life where it feels like things are getting more and more out of your control and you’re feeling more and more powerless, you make sure everything you eat has zero grams of fat. And then, it’s like the measuring and the whatever feels safe. So, that was how it came about. But then, also, you know—it’s also pretty pervasive in our sport, so I’m sure that didn’t help, either.
And it kind of coincided with climbing, but it didn’t have anything to do with climbing harder. I a hundred percent don’t feel like it was about climbing initially. Obviously, after a while, it becomes all wrapped up in it and it’s hard to separate the two. But initially, it was that classic “I need to control something, and so, this is the thing I that I can control.”
And honestly, at that time, climbing harder was at the bottom of my list of things. It felt more like survival. I didn’t have goals—I didn’t have heroes. I think people that have grown up in similar environments can really relate to this: when you grow up like that, you don’t have goals or heroes. You don’t look up to people in the same way because you are just trying to make the person in your life happy. There’s no space for that.
So, it wasn’t like, “If I lose five pounds, I’ll climb harder.” It’s more like, “I need to have this control so that I feel some sense of power in my life. And then, it became a point where it was this power I had over her, whereas in every other aspect of my life, I felt completely powerless.
I mean, I don’t know if this should go in the podcast or whatever, but she would wake me up in the middle of the night turning on lights and screaming at me that I was killing myself. And she’d tell me how shitty I looked and that she wished she could get as skinny as me so I could see how shitty I looked.
But outwardly, she would deny it—to her deathbed—that I ever had an eating issue. So, it’s hard to—
(pauses)
—it can be hard to come to grips with that sometimes when you’re told over and over and over and over that you don’t have this thing that you know that you have.
(KK): We’re gonna take a short break—so don’t go anywhere. Or…we’re a podcast. You can take us everywhere.
- The scale of climate change can make an individual feel hopelessly small, and Molly Kawahata knows this feeling well. As a former climate advisor to the Obama White House and an alpine climber with dreams of big summits, Molly dedicated her life to taking on seemingly insurmountable challenges. But it’s her personal struggle with mental health that gives her a profound understanding of how to harness the power of the mind to create change.
“The Scale of Hope” follows Molly as she prepares for an expedition in the Alaska Range while working to create a new climate narrative that centers her favorite question—What can I do to help? It’s a story about struggle, hope, and what it will take to solve the greatest issue of our time.
Go to Patagonia.com/climbing, or visit the Patagonia YouTube channel to watch “The Scale of Hope”, streaming now.
(KB): I think I was probably around seventeen or so when I started to have a lot of physical gut issues, which I am now realizing, or have realized, were a result of the eating disorder. But I didn’t know it at the time. And we went to tons and tons of doctors to try and figure out what was quote, unquote “wrong” with me.
And this is the part that I’m kind of unclear about, ‘cause I don’t have any paper documentation or anything. But I was told that I had Crohn’s disease. And so, when I was doing the X Games, there was one year where they actually talked about how I had Crohn’s disease on the air.
And I had an agent at the time and he was like, “There’s rumors that you have an eating disorder and you need to address these rumors!” And then, it was like this whole thing—“No, I have Crohn’s disease! I don’t have an eating disorder.”
And I fully played along with it, but inside, I was like, “I want someone to notice that I’m not ok.” You know?
So, anyway I had all these things going wrong with my health. Ultimately, a couple years ago, I went in for a colonoscopy and they said that I don’t have Crohn’s disease and never had any sign of ever having had Crohn’s disease.
And it’s weird, ‘cause you start wondering what’s real and what’s not, and it’s something that I’ve struggled with. Sometimes I’ll be like, “Did I actually climb Half Dome, or was I making that up?” And then, I have to be like, “No! There were people there! Alex [Honnold] was belaying you—John was taking photos! There were people there—
(laughs)
—that really happened!” And so, it’s easy to start doubting your own memories. But, to answer your question, I started having a lot of health issues. But there was still no one in my life who was willing to address that the health issues were coming from the eating disorder—myself included. I was following suit and denying it to oppress.
Because, at the time, I was quite well known in this sport. And, you know, when you look like that, there’s rumors. And so, I was just as culpable with denying that I had an eating disorder, but at the same time, wishing someone would notice that I wasn’t ok.
But anyway, so there wasn’t really anyone who was willing to address that the health issues were caused by the eating disorder, and I just got sicker and sicker and sicker until I was on a liquid diet. And I was really struggling and climbing hurt so bad. Like, all of my muscles and tendons and everything hurt.
But I was supposed to be the best in the world, and I was by myself in my garage in Georgia, trying to figure out how to stay strong or how to get better. And the pain, ultimately, got to the point where I wanted to feel better more than I cared about the eating disorder. And so,
(pauses)
—I just had to try to figure out—
(pauses)
—how to get better on my own. And that was really hard because I felt like I was giving my power away to my mom and I was gonna have nothing left, but I had to get better. And so—
(sniffs)
—I think a lot of people who have kind of been through the healing process on their own—it’s very common, I think. I’m not a professional. But I think it’s common to go through a phase where you have a lot of trouble with binging, ‘cause your body’s like, “Oh, my god! We’re eating again!” And then, it’s hard to stop. And so, you feel very out of control.
As I was trying to get better, basically what I know now, I was going through a pretty disordered eating phase through eighteen and nineteen and well into my twenties, I’d say—my eating was pretty disordered.
It was basically just too challenging—trying to get better and you have all these physical things that aren’t quite right in your body and you’re going through the emotional and psychological and mental impacts of getting bigger and what that means.
And then, adding to that, I was supposed to be this person who had never lost a climbing competition. So, by the time I was nineteen, it was just too much and I was losing climbing competitions and I didn’t know what that meant for god and I didn’t—
(laughs)
—know what that meant for—
(trails off and pauses)
It was just a lot, and so, I decided to quit competing and decided to go to college, but I wanted to go to a Christian college. There were just a lot of decisions that were made in reaction to a feeling or a thing or an event that I wasn’t self-aware enough at the time to realize, “Oh, I’m doing this as a reaction to this,”
You’re like, “I’ll try this! I’ll try this! I’ll try this! I’ll try this!”
(KK): It’s an unthinkable statistic, but every sixty-two minutes, at least one person dies as a direct result from an eating disorder. EDs are debilitating conditions and represent the third most deadly mental illness, second only to opioid addiction. They affect people from all walks of life, regardless of age, gender, or ethnicity, and have become even more prevalent during the pandemic.
Black, Indigenous, and people of color are significantly less likely than white people to be diagnosed or receive treatment.
Gender dysphoria in trans communities is often cited as a key link to EDs. 32% of trans people use disordered eating to modify their body without hormones.
Less than 6% of those with an ED are medically “underweight”.
Men also represent a growing proportion of individuals suffering from anorexia and bulimia, two of the most common EDs.
1 in 5 with an ED will attempt suicide.
These statistics shine a light on EDs in order to improve the continuation of conducting research, providing clinical care, and offering resources to individuals. In the early 2000s, Katie left for college for the first time. And while most young adults relish the thought of going away to college, Katie just wanted to get away from the life she knew.
(KB): I don’t know if exciting is the right word, just because I remember that time feeling very hard. I remember feeling really confused and just trying really hard to figure it all out and make sense of it. And you’re also trying to fit that into the things that you know and try and make sense of it. ‘Cause your brain has this self-preservation thing where you’re like, “Well, I have to make sense of this because, otherwise, how am I gonna cope?”
But for me, when I was nineteen or twenty, partly the reason I chose that college was because it was quite far from home, the thing that I struggled with most during that time was—how is it that all these other people seem to know how to have a life? And I couldn’t figure out—how do you have a life?
Kids would come up and introduce themselves because they were familiar with me as a climber. So, that was how I would meet people. But I still had a really hard time figuring out how to relate to people.
‘Cause my world had been so insular, and it was all about my mom and god and trying to live up to what I thought I was supposed to do as a climber. And then, I quit school. And so, my brother and his wife were living in Gunnison. So, I went to Gunnison and I rented this little two hundred square foot cabin and basically, spent the winter by myself in that cabin going crazy.
(laughs)
I remember just thinking, “How do all these people have a life? How do I create a life? How do I do that? I have no idea how to do that. How do you make friends? How do you—
(pauses)
—how do you create a life?”
(KK): Katie came to realize that the first step to making a life was to quit her old one, which meant quitting climbing professionally. What came after that, many years, in fact, was re-learning what climbing meant to her.
(KB): I tried to quit when I was nineteen. So, I tried to quit that one time.
(laughs)
And I wrote my sponsors these letters and dropped them off at the trade show. And at that time, I think the reason I ultimately went back to it had a lot to do with just not knowing who I was outside of that sport. And so, I felt like it was the only way for me to create a life—the only way for me to be someone.
I went back into climbing, I’d say, partly because I still loved it, but partly because I didn’t know who I was without it. I mean, it was kind of like a tapering through my twenties where I just wasn’t that passionate about it and I was really dealing with a lot of mental health stuff. Like, when I was joking with Kalous about leaving—
(laughs)
—Cochamo and stuff like that, there was a lot of that happening through my twenties that were just like—starting and stopping and starting and stopping. What I now know was a lot of mental health stuff, but I wasn’t recognizing it at the time
And it kind of just tapered off and, ultimately, I just didn’t have any sponsors left! And then, I was pregnant and had a baby and I didn’t exercise at all, for like six years. Like, no joke!
(both laugh)
Maybe five! But it was a really long time.
(KK): Parenthood is the great educator. It teaches us how to do things like replace swear words and to multi-task beyond what the human brain initially dreamed possible. But what they don’t tell you is that the process of unlearning can be painfully and back-breakingly hard.
Un-defining the lessons etched into our tiny kid brains that serve as defense mechanisms or adaptive responses later in life is what allows Katie to redefine what motherhood means to her and Tayla.
(KB): It’s really interesting ‘cause you watch your kid grow up and sometimes, it can be like looking at a mirror. And you’re like, “Ohh, yes—I should probably work on that! ‘Cause now it’s being reflected back at me!”
(laughs)
I think kids can teach you a lot. You see them mimic or learn from you and there’s some things that you’re stoked that they’re learning from you and there’s other things that you’re like, “Ok, I need to work on that. I don’t wanna pass that on.”
And I think my biggest fear around becoming a parent was the responsibility of it felt huge, because I carry so much, that I didn’t wanna get it wrong. And that’s still a fear that I carry all the time with being a parent—is just wanting to do a good job so that she grows up to be strong and healthy.
And I think being a parent also can have the potential to teach you to be a little softer on yourself—‘cause kids are so forgiving and giving and awesome. So, it can also teach you to cut yourself some slack, too.
Like I was saying earlier, it’s interesting because when you become a parent, you can really see the parts of your own life and your own upbringing that you wanna pass on, and the parts that you don’t wanna pass on. For some of us, it’s mostly stuff we don’t wanna pass on.
(laughs)
(KK): Humans evolved to think adaptively—not always logically. So much of what we’ve learned stems from adaptive responses to increase the likelihood of surviving something like trauma or a toxic childhood—AKA Katie had been in survival mode for a long time.
So many of us have all lived in this mode. We’re either attacking a problem or retreating from it. When there’s no long-term goal—you’re just there to make it through the season and get to the other side—there’s inevitably less room for joy.
Literally, as I’m writing this, I am internally face-palming because, duh. I do it, too. Everything feels urgent, everything is a reaction, i.e. you are never one step ahead and always behind. But, hark—there’s good news. There are actionable steps designed to get you out of this mode.
One of which is having hope. And therapy—thank god—I’m using that ironically—for therapy. Self-reflection and somatic techniques can help us unlearn. Resources that can help along the way include support groups, therapy, loved ones, books and educators. You’re never as alone as you think, and help is available.
And as for Katie? She spent a lot of time reframing everything from motherhood to climbing to the very core of who she was. The proclivity for self-criticism or a previous no-fear-go-hard-onsight attitude was her reactionary way of acting in response to emotional stress.
And it’s possible that being in survival mode and experiencing the situations that get us there are actually how we increase compassion for ourselves—and maybe the capacity for that compassion is there, all along.
(KB): I mean, I haven’t climbed all that much since March.
(laughs)
Prior to March, I was getting in a good routine of having some people to meet at the gym while Tayla was in school. And so, I wasn’t climbing outdoors really yet, ‘cause I hadn’t quite figured out how to make that happen. But it was really fun going to the gym.
And I’d say there’s just a lot less attachment to what it means, but I will probably struggle with certain characteristics. Like, being scared was always a big no-no. And so, I worked really hard to always be brave and not scared.
But sometimes, it would come out when I was younger in these huge freakouts and then, I would just have the ultimate self-hatred. Re-learning to be like, “You know—you might be scared right now, and that’s ok and it doesn’t make you a less valuable person.”
(laughs)
Or just not feeling like you always, every single day have to be pushing outside of that comfort zone, and learning to be ok with, “Today—this is where I’m at, and that’s ok,” and not having all these expectations of yourself because it means something about who you are.
So, my two favorite days climbing are easy to pick out. One was, honestly, Half Dome. Umm, what year would that have been? Probably like 2007 or something like that.
It was just a cool day of feeling really supported and conquering a big hurdle. ‘Cause the grade isn’t technically that difficult, but usually, when you’re onsighting, it’s one pitch. And so, it was a long time for me, personally, to combat my inner critics.
And so, by that last slab pitch, it would have been my natural inclination to give up at that point and pretend like I didn’t care. So, it was a cool moment to push past that.
That, and days in Indian Creek with the Moab crew, back in the day. Those were awesome times, as well, just being out with good people.
And one was doing the Matthes Crest. We made this movie about climbing in India when I was young. So, the group of us who were all doing the movie were doing a movie tour, and we stopped and soloed the Matthes Crest and that was just the best day, hands down, ever.
(laughs)
It was so fun!
I am an endurance person. I will always be an endurance person. And so, the long day of just doing your body, not being in your head. Just not being so difficult that you have to be really on point and just being out there, moving for a long time and—yeah. It was just something about that day that was really, really special.
(MALE VOCALIST):
Alright, look what we started
Good roots grow in our garden
Alright, look what we started
Good roots grow in our garden
Good roots grow in our garden
(KK): “Unraveled: A Climber’s Journey Through Darkness and Back” is a 250-page memoir detailing more of Katie’s life and asks the audience to take a harder look at the mental health of young female athletes.
If you or someone you know is struggling with eating disorders and mental health, reach out today. Call or text the National Eating Disorders Helpline for support, resources, and treatment options at (800) 931-2237.
Eating disorder recovery is possible, and the National Association of Anorexia Nervosa and Associated Disorders is here to help. ANAD provides emotional support and referrals at no cost. Call (888) 375-7767.
Project HEAL’s programs break down the systemic, healthcare, and financial barriers that millions of people in the U.S. face. They’re active in research, education, and advocacy at the national level. Visit theprojectheal.org for more information.
Find Katie Brown’s book, Unraveled: A Climber’s Journey Through Darkness and Back” anywhere online or in stores now. You can also find Katie on Instagram, but it’s probably better to just email her.
(MALE VOCALIST):
Good roots grow in our garden
(KK): You’re listening to For the Love of Climbing Podcast. A huge thank you to deuter, one of the leading backpack brands that will help you hit the trails with confidence and comfort. And a big thank you to Gnarly Nutrition for supporting this podcast and the messages that we share. Gnarly Nutrition supports a community of vulnerability and equality—and tastes like a milkshake, without all the crap. A big shout out to Allez Outdoor for supporting the Access Fund and 1% for the Planet. And to Ocún—innovative gear engineered for climbing to improve your performance.
And thanks to Patagonia. Not bound by convention, Patagonia is in business to save our home planet. Support companies who support this podcast—we couldn’t do it without them. If you liked what you heard, you can leave a review on iTunes or give us a like—like all good things, you can find us on the internet.
(KB): Oh dude, I got benighted on the Naked Edge.
(KK): How did that happen?
(KB): With my boyfriend at the time who was also a professional climber.
(both laugh)
And we were like, “Sweet! We’re benighted on the Naked Edge.” It was like January and he was notorious for sleeping in. And so, we started at three p.m. or something crazy. So, it got dark at like five!
(laughs)
And we were at the top and it was covered in snow. And I had done it once before with Christian Griffith when I was a teenager, but I didn’t remember! I had no idea how to get down. So, we were basically stuck on top and our friends had to come get us.
Like, “Don’t worry! We know what we’re doing.”
(both laugh)
Additional Resources:
National Association of Anorexia Nervosa and Associated Disorders is a non-profit, 501 (c)(3) organization providing free, peer support services to anyone struggling with an eating disorder.
ANAD was founded in 1976 by Vivian Meehan, a nurse whose daughter had been diagnosed with anorexia and was unable to find support for eating disorders. Vivian started her own eating disorders support group in her basement in Highland Park, Illinois, and served as ANAD’s president until she retired in 2009.
Since 1976, ANAD has grown to become the leading nonprofit in the U.S. providing free, peer support services to anyone struggling with an eating disorder. What began as one support group in Highland Park, Illinois, is now 11 virtual support groups, a Helpline, and mentorship program. Today, ANAD serves 200 people every week. Our work is made possible by our diverse board and staff, generous donors, and our nationwide network of volunteers who understand firsthand the ups and downs of the recovery journey.
ANAD’s mission is to relieve suffering by providing support & education to those struggling with disordered eating and body image.
Project HEAL (Help to Eat, Accept and Live) is a nonprofit organization that helps people suffering with eating disorders pay for treatment. The organization was founded in 2008 by Liana Rosenman and Kristina Saffran, who had met while undergoing treatment for anorexia nervosa. Project HEAL’s grants help to cover inpatient, residential, outpatient, and intensive outpatient treatments. Recipients can apply for treatment grants through the organization’s website.
Eating Disorder Hope‘s mission is to offer hope, information, and resources to individual eating disorder sufferers, their family members, and treatment providers. Eating Disorder Hope promotes ending eating disordered behavior, embracing life and pursuing recovery. Their mission is to foster an appreciation of one’s uniqueness and value in the world, unrelated to appearance, achievement or applause. Visit their website for additional resources or to learn more about fighting for health insurance coverage.
Athletes are uniquely vulnerable to disordered eating and exercise behaviors due to the relationship their athletic performance may have with their nutritional intake and training schedule. Understanding the risks athletes face is key to providing preventative support and coaching. This article contains resources that can help to reduce the likelihood of eating disorder development as well as increase the likelihood of early intervention and, therefore, long-term recovery.
Why Eating Disorder Treatment is Failing Us All is written by Sarah J, Thompson and edited by Ashley Seruya, and talks about what a social-justice approach to eating disorder treatments look like. *Content Warning: This article contains graphic description of anorexia and bulimia.